Episode #205: 

Lina Lugova, CMO at EPOM, shares her definition of the disruption economy, drawing on Taleb’s concept of antifragility: constant, unpredictable change fueled by geopolitical shifts, AI revolutions, and evolving customer needs. Lina argues that university‑taught playbooks are obsolete and modern leaders need a “goldfish mindset,” letting go of past successes or failures to connect emerging dots early. She also outlines how success now means building resilient, decentralized teams with fast and transparent cross-team communication.

“Success today isn’t about perfection, it’s about building trust. The brands and leaders who win are those willing to be genuine. They adapt fast. They lead with empathy, even when everything around them isn’t in flux.” – Lina Lugova

Lina dives into why the playbooks of yesterday no longer drive results. You’ll learn how to structure cross‑functional teams for decentralized decision‑making, foster transparent communication under pressure, and build a human‑first brand that thrives amid unpredictable change.

Follow Lina Lugova on LinkedIn

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[Transcript]

[00:00:00] Steve MacDonald: Welcome everyone to the C‑Suite Sales and Marketing Perspectives podcast. I’m Steve MacDonald, your host, and today we have a very special guest, Lina Lugova. Lina, you’re not only a Chief Marketing Officer, you’re a Chief Mother Officer too—you’ve got a toddler at home. You’ve also held executive coaching roles, led international B2B marketing for global companies, and you’re originally from Ukraine now living in Poland.

[00:00:38] Steve MacDonald: There’s obviously a lot going on with the war in Ukraine, but today we’re talking about How to Define Success in the New Disruption Economy. Disruption isn’t just war—it’s the constant upheaval we navigate in our economies. Before we dive in, please expand on your background and then we’ll get into the heart of the topic.

[00:01:08] Lina Lugova: Thank you for the warm welcome, Steve. I’ve spent the last nine years at EPOM, a martech company offering both white‑label DSP and ad server solutions. I reshaped digital marketing processes, brand tone of voice, and market positioning—shifting EPOM to a human‑first brand. That work grew qualified leads by 30 percent, strengthened inbound by double digits, and directly influenced revenue.

[00:01:46] Lina Lugova: Before EPOM, I was agency‑side designing digital strategies for publishers like Forbes and other top‑tier media across CEE markets. There I learned to scale regional nuances into global impact. Beyond marketing and media, I coach leaders to thrive in uncertainty and build resilience.

[00:02:17] Lina Lugova: I was among the early pioneers of programmatic advertising starting in 2011, when we had to be inventive and constantly iterate to maximize performance across all those channels. That’s where I built my core strength: creativity plus data. That mindset has helped me ever since—especially now, when we talk about the disruption economy.

[00:02:58] Steve MacDonald: That’s a great place to start. How do you define the disruption economy?

[00:03:16] Lina Lugova: I’d reference Nassim Taleb’s concept of antifragility. He describes a disruption economy as a state of constant, unpredictable change driven by external forces—geopolitical shifts, continuous tech innovation like the AI revolution, and evolving customer behavior. Customers demand very different things today than even two or three years ago. The old playbook no longer works. Everything you learned in university feels outdated because you must constantly adapt.

[00:04:15] Lina Lugova: Modern leaders—especially CMOs—need a goldfish mindset. They shouldn’t cling to past successes or failures; they must keep their minds clear to connect new dots early.

[00:04:49] Steve MacDonald: I love that. Playbooks almost feel like a dirty word today, because strategies assume a fixed set of motions will guarantee success. Yet our ICPs are complex and ever‑changing. Disruption can be war, a pandemic, or a new enabling technology that dramatically shifts expectations. How, then, do we define success in this disruption economy?

[00:05:42] Lina Lugova: To me, success means building resilient, decentralized teams that can adapt rapidly and make autonomous decisions. That requires structured, fast, transparent cross‑team communication to keep product, sales, and marketing in sync, even if they move at different paces. None of this works without careful planning and strong leadership.

[00:06:30] Lina Lugova: A successful CMO communicates effectively across channels, sets clear goals, sees the bigger picture, and constantly reevaluates strategy to stay ahead of change. 

[00:06:45] Steve MacDonald: It’s interesting—today we have more technology and more data at our disposal than ever before, so it’s easy to hide behind it and let it drive decisions. What I’m hearing you say is we’ve got to stay connected. Even in AI, the idea of human in the loop is a big conversation, and it almost feels like we’re going back to human connections and conversations. We can’t forget those, because relying solely on messaging and tools gets in the way of genuine dialogue—where so much innovation and shared knowledge happens. That stay‑connected mindset applies internally and externally with customers—is that a fair takeaway?

[00:07:55] Lina Lugova: Absolutely. A few days ago I read that over 60 percent of U.S. adults report feeling lonely regularly. That sense of isolation affects productivity and problem solving. You can’t be creative or communicate effectively when you’re isolated—when you discuss strategy with Chat GPT instead of real customers.

[00:08:41] Lina Lugova: That silent treatment can infect teams that only talk numbers. I remember in 2022, when Russia launched its full‑scale invasion, my entire team was in Ukraine—it was terrifying. I realized that checking tasks wasn’t what they needed, so I changed the purpose of our daily meetings. I shared my own frustrations and uncertainties, told the team I was there for them personally and professionally. That shift turned our meetings into spaces for sharing, release, and connection.

[00:09:45] Lina Lugova: That small change helped us not just survive, but build an unshakeable sense of trust. I’m proud that 100 percent of my team—ten employees and ten freelancers—reported our workspace felt safe.

[00:10:10] Steve MacDonald: You balanced two key concepts: safety and trust. Creating a culture of psychological safety—where people can try, fail, and be themselves without fear—is where innovation happens. Trust is one of the biggest issues in business today. Forrester found trust is the number one issue facing B2B companies, and the Edelman Trust Barometer shows global trust has declined for decades. The current geopolitical climate has eroded trust further. Our brands are supposed to be trust marks, yet 61 percent of global respondents worry business leaders intentionally mislead them. The conversations you describe build trust internally—how do we extend that to customers?

[00:11:57] Lina Lugova: Last year’s work by WARC showed long‑term brand building campaigns outperform short‑term sales activations by 60 percent over time, yet they receive less budget because they don’t deliver immediate results. In our fast‑dopamine world—where platforms reward the shortest attention spans—fast content can give reach but not the resonance needed for trust. A post may go viral and then disappear without changing behavior.

[00:13:05] Lina Lugova: Everyone just clicks and moves on. We decided to go deeper. Those quick posts on LinkedIn and social media get consistent reach, but we wanted customers to stay—to get smarter and discover something new. We leverage our first‑party data, original research, and customer experience to build that trust. So we create fewer pieces of content, but they’re more meaningful, and we remain open to dialogue. We receive feedback from blog posts, case studies, and leads asking us to explain points further—and we do. That builds expert credibility every company seeks. It’s a long‑term strategy; it won’t yield fast results, and you have to make tough choices if resources are limited. You should choose conversions and trust over generic AI‑generated posts promising instant efficiency.

[00:14:47] Steve MacDonald: You mentioned a dopamine‑driven attention economy earlier. What exactly do you mean by that?

[00:15:03] Lina Lugova: Imagine how we consume a book today: first you read it, then you watch a ten‑minute summary, and finally you see a 15‑second TikTok about it. That’s the dopamine cycle—shorter and shorter bursts of information, even in sports highlights.

[00:15:46] Steve MacDonald: Given we live in this dopamine‑driven, disruptive economy, what must we do to be successful? What changes should we embrace?

[00:16:06] Lina Lugova: I’ve learned not to over‑optimize every dollar. You need a budget buffer so you can move fast when conditions change. For example, when AI content optimization emerged, we adapted our purely organic strategy. Organic now means SEO plus AI optimization. To test that hypothesis, you need budget.

[00:16:49] Lina Lugova: We run small, fast experiments because it’s better done than perfect. We test different messaging, content, and channels constantly—but only spend about 20 percent of our time on experimentation. We focus the rest on channels already driving conversions. I also diversify lead sources and partnerships and maintain a network of trusted freelancers for rapid pivots. If my user acquisition lead quits, someone else can keep the ball rolling. I’ve built a knowledge base so the team can pick up where I left off.

[00:17:38] Lina Lugova: Another helpful strategy in disruptive times is to plan from where you want to be in six months or a year, not just based on current resources. Regular alignment with finance, sales, and analytics is essential—you’re not working in a bubble.

[00:18:47] Steve MacDonald: You talked about spending budget on testing. We have finite resources and can’t waste them. But if we don’t test constantly and stick only to what worked yesterday, we risk losing significant budget when those tactics stop performing. That’s what you meant by playbooks not working tomorrow—always test for new winners. How do you incorporate that mindset across your team, beyond media plans and budgets? 

[00:20:04] Lina Lugova: Before rolling out any AI or automation tests, I constantly ask the team: How many times can we afford to be wrong when it comes to lead quality and generation? If you automate acquisition or test blindly just because everyone else does, you burn budget and erode trust.

[00:20:42] Lina Lugova: We’re testing AI tools like SurferSEO very selectively, because it’s only for smarter content optimization. We also trial ChatGPT helpers for research, but we apply all tests with our main OKRs in mind. Everything we do must drive more conversions—if it can’t, we probably shouldn’t do it.

[00:21:24] Lina Lugova: This year our mantra was simple: fewer distractions, more decisions backed by data. That kept performance high even when budgets were tight and stakeholders still expected a lot—thanks to the hype around AI automating everything, they assume we can deliver twice the content, which is impossible. The CMO must communicate realistic expectations.

[00:22:12] Steve MacDonald: I have two more questions. First: with constant testing and iteration, what are some mistakes you or your team made that taught you valuable lessons?

[00:22:46] Lina Lugova: The hardest lesson I learned is that more traffic doesn’t mean better leads, and it certainly doesn’t mean growth. In 2021, before the AI boom, my small team of five strong T‑shaped specialists—excellent at user acquisition, SEO, and PR—doubled or even tripled our website traffic. I assumed that would boost qualified leads, but lead quality tanked. Many visitors used generic or personal emails and had zero intent, and we couldn’t qualify them properly. In B2B, that gap hurts.

[00:24:00] Lina Lugova: I partnered with our analyst to dive into channel performance and started scoring leads by quality indicators: business vs. personal email, Tier 1 vs. Tier 3 countries, and level of intent—casual curiosity versus genuine interest. By late 2022, traffic wasn’t the goal anymore; conversions became our North Star. We launched fewer campaigns and content pieces—only those that matched our ICP and drove conversions. That shift didn’t just help marketing; it helped sales close faster with less friction. Those big traffic spikes look great on dashboards, but they distracted us from real objectives.

[00:25:53] Steve MacDonald: It’s natural to chase volume and quality at the same time, but as you showed, higher volume often dilutes quality. 

[00:25:54] Lina Lugova: Yeah. And one thing many B2B companies overlook is the pre‑sales stage. Typically marketing owns this phase, yet we lack deep customer knowledge and use cases. Even automated marketing or email chains can underperform without tailored insights.

[00:26:27] Lina Lugova: For small to mid‑size B2B firms, I recommend creating a pre‑sales marketer role to bridge marketing and sales—someone who nurtures leads into demos or trials. That focus closes the gap between awareness and conversion.

[00:27:01] Steve MacDonald: We’ve covered a lot, and our human brains can only retain a few key points. In under a minute, what’s the single most important takeaway from today’s conversation?

[00:27:22] Lina Lugova: Success today isn’t about perfection; it’s about building trust. Brands and leaders who win are willing to be real. They adapt fast and lead with empathy, even when everything around them is in flux.

[00:27:50] Steve MacDonald: I know listeners will want to connect. May I share a link to your LinkedIn profile so they can reach out?

[00:27:59] Lina Lugova: Sure.

[00:28:00] Steve MacDonald: The mission of this podcast is to bring C‑Suite leaders together to share go‑to‑market insights—rising tides that lift all boats. You’ve been an important part of that tide today. Thank you.

[00:28:29] Lina Lugova: Thank you. It was a pleasure talking with you. In a world full of noise, automation, and AI, the real difference is made by human‑to‑human interaction.