Baris Vural, CRO at Smartlinx, emphasizes the vital role of a well-defined Ideal Customer Profile (ICP) in accelerating go-to-market success. He explores how understanding evolving customer needs, fostering human-centered communication, and building communities enable businesses to connect deeply with C-suite executives, address their challenges, and create targeted, impactful marketing strategies.
“As a CRO, it’s all about efficiency, customer acquisition costs, and ensuring your company focuses on the right targets. If you’re engaging with the wrong ICP, you’ll drag your entire company along with you.” – Baris Vural
Baris Vural highlights the importance of defining the Ideal Customer Profile (ICP) by understanding customers’ shared challenges. Through community engagement, businesses can foster relationships and build brand familiarity beyond immediate sales. Continuous outreach like podcasting strengthens these connections, enabling refined ICPs, reduced acquisition costs, and better conversion rates. By listening and adapting, companies can shape strategies that align with the evolving B2B landscape.
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[Transcript]
[00:00:00] Steve MacDonald: Hey, everybody. Welcome to the C-Suite Sales and Marketing Perspectives podcast. I’m Steve McDonald, your host. Today, we have one of the most interesting conversations we’ve ever had on this podcast. We’re joined by Baris Vural, and Baris, you’re a CRO, and we’re diving into something not all CROs discuss in depth—the absolute importance of understanding your ICP at the deepest level, which then accelerates every part of your go-to-market strategy. What I’d love, though, is if you wouldn’t mind, just give us 30 seconds of your background before we dig in.
[00:00:41] Baris Vural: Yeah, great to be here. Great to meet you, Steve, as well. I’m the CRO at Smartlinx. I’ve spent a lot of time in my career in sales and marketing development, sales development, and solution engineering in software companies.
[00:00:57] Baris Vural: Small, large, big, private equity, public—you name it, been there, done that. I’m excited to talk about what I believe is the crux of getting the go-to-market strategy right, which is understanding the persona behind the ICP—who you’re selling to and what problems you’re solving. I’ve spent, I spent, my whole career trying to figure that out. It’s not easy; it’s very complex. But I think we can break that down into manageable chunks, and I’m happy to bring my experience to it.
[00:01:33] Steve MacDonald: Well, great, because you’re doing some innovative things. But I wanted to start by asking—tell us a little about how you think about the ICP and why it’s so important.
[00:01:44] Baris Vural: I’m going to define this as understanding how your customers define success and outcomes from the solutions they use, and how they quantify and qualify the value they get. Sometimes, even for us, after 35 years, we think we know what our customers and prospects need, but they’re constantly changing, right?
[00:02:06] Baris Vural: They’re constantly pivoting with new regulations and various tailwinds and headwinds. We focus on the “who” first, like persona-based value creation. Before we even discuss ICP, we talk about long-term value creation.
[00:02:25] Baris Vural: We think about CX, all those aspects, and we really obsess over the persona we’re solving for and their daily experience. I always tell my team, “Alright, we often sell to the CFO or the CEO,” right? Sometimes it’s the CHRO, head of HR, or head of finance, and sometimes it goes up to the CEO, depending on the organization’s size.
[00:02:50] Baris Vural: And we almost have to be obsessed with the day in the life of these people—how they think about our solution and the problems we solve for them. What are they thinking? How do they wake up every morning, considering the problems we help them solve? Are those issues as critical to them as we think they are? Are their priorities changing? Is the ranking of these problems shifting? Is the number one problem now ranked fifth, or is number five moving up to the top?
[00:03:21] Baris Vural: I call it the “menu of problems,” and in our industry—healthcare—priorities shift constantly. A new regulation or compliance issue, or something related to patient care, can suddenly demand attention, and CFOs or CEOs find themselves scrambling. It’s like yesterday, the second floor was on fire, so everyone attended to that. Today, the second floor seems okay, but now the basement is flooding. I use that analogy because every day brings a new challenge.
[00:03:45] Baris Vural: As we’re connecting with these people through email, social, events, whatever it may be, we need to think about what’s keeping them up at night and how those concerns are evolving. That’s the starting point, in my opinion. We always start with where they are and how they’re handling industry headwinds—I call it the “crisis du jour.” I talk to 10 or 20 CEOs and CFOs every week and ask, “All right, Steve, what’s the crisis du jour today?”
[00:04:38] Baris Vural: They’re like, “Oh,” and then when I talk to them the following week, it’s constantly changing. I can barely keep up.
[00:04:43] Steve MacDonald: It happens so quickly that there’s always a crisis, it’s always different, and it’s constantly changing. In just two words, you captured that.
[00:04:50] Baris Vural: As CROs, and within go-to-market teams, if we can ground ourselves in the common themes that emerge from these conversations—three or four core issues—they have to be real conversations, not through email or ChatGPT, but human-to-human discussions. When you’re speaking to the buyer, the persona who writes the check, you start to notice recurring themes.
[00:05:24] Baris Vural: Your messaging and ICP become clearer when you identify those themes. Next quarter, maybe one of them holds, and two have changed. That’s how you stay in sync with the persona, the person you’re trying to sell to—you have to immerse yourself fully.
[00:05:49] Baris Vural: I always tell my team—my customer success team, sales team, and marketing team—this is the alignment conversation. As long as we’re all aligned on what prospects are saying from the same industry, what customers are saying from the same industry, and that collaboration between the customer success team, the CSMs, account managers, and account executives aligns.
[00:06:12] Baris Vural:Now we’re all speaking the same language, right? We’re all focused on the same three, four, five things—the crisis of the month, the crisis of the quarter, the crisis of the year. These start emerging, and that’s how you differentiate your value from the rest.
[00:06:25] Steve MacDonald: I wanted to get your unbridled reaction because I had a CMO on the podcast a couple of weeks ago who said, “If I understand my ICP better than my competitors, even if I have a product just as good, but I cater to their needs, I can show them that I get it.”
[00:06:48] Steve MacDonald: If you have that deep understanding and those conversations with CEOs and others, as you’re learning about their crisis du jour, you’re learning about what their life is, right? And I guarantee, I’ll go out on a limb, that rarely do you have a conversation where you’re not pulling from another one you had. And these people see that—it’s like, not only do you get it, but they don’t talk to their peer community like you did.
[00:07:25] Steve MacDonald: This is one thing I learned through this podcast. I’ve interviewed over a hundred B2B C-suite executives, and most CMOs or CEOs I talk to have rarely spoken with their peer community. Not because Steve or Baris are the smartest guys in the world, but we end up representing that peer community for those we speak to. That positions you as a peer, not a seller. It goes beyond the Gartner “trusted advisor” status we’re supposed to aim for. They genuinely see you as a peer because, when they talk about the crisis du jour, they’re not always talking about what you do or how you could solve it. They want you to talk about all these crises.
[00:08:19] Baris Vural: Correct, and I’m glad you say that because yesterday, I was in Louisville, Kentucky, and we had a customer advisory board meeting. We had 20 executives, 20 C-suite customers who use our product. And I asked the question, I’m like, how often do you guys talk? Like, how often do you guys collaborate? One of the key takeaways from the three-hour meeting was that we’re not talking enough, we’re not leveraging, and we’re not picking—like we’re not picking each other’s brains.
[00:08:52] Baris Vural: Because we’re all facing the same problems, right? We’re all trying to, like, we all have the same crises that we’re all dealing with. Some of us are dealing with it differently than others, but it’s all the same stuff, right? One of the CFOs said, “I would love to steal ideas from you, and I want you to steal my ideas if they’re great.” And I think that notion of, yes, we are competitors—and by the way, these people are competitors, right, because they’re in the same community—but them sitting in the room and saying, “We don’t mind having a lot of these conversations,” is key, right?
[00:09:26] Baris Vural: As long as we’re not sharing confidential information, we’re fine talking about our problems. I think when people talk about their challenges and problems, automatically, whether it’s related to our product or our solution or whether we can help them or not—because, honestly, most of those things we cannot help them with, right?
[00:09:42] Baris Vural: But there’s one or two that we can help with. They can talk about eight or nine things, and they’re not looking for solutions. The one thing I realize is sometimes people just want to talk about their challenges; they’re not looking for a magic wand or some magician to come in and say, “I’m going to make all of them disappear.”
[00:10:02] Baris Vural: But I think what they’re looking for is, “I’m going to dump a lot of issues on you, and if you understand my business, if you understand me as the persona, and if you can offer one idea, one solution, I’ll take that.” I’m not looking for five or 10. If you can give me one, fantastic. That’s one less problem I have to deal with.
[00:10:29] Steve MacDonald: That offsite where you gathered with all your clients and you gave—that is part of the customer experience, right? That you just created. And at the same time, by bringing it together, you became a trusted peer in that environment, right? So here’s the difference.
[00:10:47] Steve MacDonald: I just heard about this stat, probably from years ago, but that on average, across 4,000 recorded sales conversations, the rep talked 85 percent of the time. So that has to be part of the customer experience, right? That process has to be a part of that, right?
[00:11:04] Steve MacDonald: But if you’re talking 85 percent of the time and listening 15 percent, and you’re only talking about “this is what we do,” you’re not really having an open conversation. It’s a guarded conversation to begin with. To your point, these human-to-human conversations, to understand their “crisis du jour,” what their life is really about—we have to create those opportunities. They are not going to naturally happen in our go-to-market motion, right?
[00:11:40] Baris Vural: So true. That’s where most B2B companies fall short. I think there is a sense of—when people share, it’s so funny. It’s the human psychology, isn’t it? Like, when people share common problems and challenges and goals, all of a sudden, organically, you have a commodity; like, you always become a tribe, right?
[00:11:57] Baris Vural: A tribe that kind of protects one another, watches for each other’s back, and trusts is formed because now you and I are going through the same challenging path. Absolutely. Absolutely. We share like we’re in this together. Yes. We’re either gonna lead together or we’re gonna win together.
[00:12:15] Baris Vural: I think the majority of humans want to help. They wanna help, and nobody wants to do it alone. One of the common takeaways is, like, jokingly stealing from one another. Obviously. Yes. Me: what are you doing? What are the best practices?
[00:12:29] Baris Vural: What am I missing? What am I missing out on that I can learn from you? But hey, look, you know, rather than competing, somebody used the word—what is the word? Coopetition? Cooperate, but then compete, but then we need to cooperate. I think when that emerges, you’re right.
[00:12:46] Baris Vural: Like when that thought leadership, that trust, is formed out of a community, tribal community, or whatever you want to refer to it as, we call it a customer advisory board. But in fact, this is a community, right? A community that shares ideas, shares problems, shares all of these things, and I think, eventually, it leads to your solution.
[00:13:06] Baris Vural: It leads to some type of resolution. Because I think humans, at the end of the day, we like to complain about our problems. But I think we’re also very outcome-focused. Like, we want some of those problems to be solved. We’re always looking for a hero, somebody to come up and say, “Hey, I think there’s a better future. There’s a better life that we can help with.”
[00:13:25] Steve MacDonald: I’ll ask you another opinion on this. So that is what podcasting is. It’s not a group coming together, but it’s that human-to-human connection, every single week because we’re going to produce a podcast episode. So, every week, we talk to somebody who is in the community of who we sell, and not in that sales context, not in the customer success context, not in the customer support context—in a crisis du jour context, right? Learning in what’s phenomenal about that. And, like, when you brought that community together, you don’t know what you’re going to get out of it. There’s this leap of faith that you have to say if I get in, and if I talk and I listen, I’m going to learn.
[00:14:14] Steve MacDonald: Who does that best has the best understanding of their persona, their ICP; therefore, has the best ability to, when you first started talking about how do we create success and outcomes, we need to be delivering experience. But, to do that, everything you’re talking about—we have to have a deep, deep understanding of who it is that we’re trying to create that experience for.
[00:14:43] Baris Vural: Absolutely, Steve. I think you give the prospect or the customer a glimpse of what that experience is going to look like by having that thought leadership, consultative conversation. And I always tell my team, the best way to build credibility with customers is when you’re coming from a place of curiosity, right?
[00:15:07] Baris Vural: You just tell the CFO, or whoever—your CISO or CIO, whatever the persona that you’re talking to is—rather than asking them what are the top three things that are keeping them up at night, you tell them. You say, look, I just did a customer advisory board meeting, and 20 CIOs showed up. Three ideas or three issues emerged—number one, number two, number three. Does that resonate? Are you right? And they immediately go, “Whoa, this guy’s speaking my language.” And he just said that he talked to 20 other CIOs. I think I should get connected to this community.
[00:15:49] Baris Vural: All of a sudden they’re thinking, because the more of these conversations that you have, not only are you becoming more educated about your persona, but also it helps you ask the right questions. Salespeople make this mistake, and I always tell my team not to lead with the product the features, and the functionality. Like you said, we can do all those 10 things.
[00:16:13] Baris Vural: Do you know the right questions to ask about those 10 things that will help you build credibility with the CISO, right? Because the CIO is like—I’m a CRO. I get a lot of sales pitches, and when the other person on the call is asking smart questions, it gets down to the nerve. It touches a nerve, you know what I mean?
[00:16:37 ] Baris Vural: There are smart questions, and then there are dumb questions, and then there are questions in between, right? Smart C-suites immediately know when the person they’re talking to is asking a really deep, meaningful question. It engages them, and that becomes a very meaningful conversation versus “What do you use for CRM?” or “Do you like it?” Those questions are so basic that no executive wants to spend their time on them. They’re going to hang up on you, right? You’ve got to put a lot of time into how thoughtful and thought-provoking your questions are. At the same time, they need to challenge them, but also come from a place of curiosity—and from all the conversations you’ve accumulated.
[00:17:25] Steve MacDonald: Same persona, right? You just gave me a phenomenal idea. So, your customer advisory board—and as much as you’re lighting up about that for all the right reasons—what I’m thinking is, why shouldn’t it be an ICP advisory? Why shouldn’t it include prospects—organizations you haven’t even talked to from a sales perspective yet, right? One group could be deals in the pipeline, another group could be customers, especially our biggest revenue expansion customers. One group could be prospects—organizations we haven’t even opened the door with or started the conversation with yet, right?
[00:18:05] Steve MacDonald: The goal is to bring them on and transition them to a prospect. It doesn’t always happen because 95 percent of the market isn’t in the market right away. But, why couldn’t they be a part of a community? They want to come on the podcast because they want to know what’s going on.
[00:18:27] Steve MacDonald: They also want to be recognized in their career, and everyone understands their thought leadership, their brands, and so forth. But the next step should be inviting them into a community of their peers.
[00:18:42] Baris Vural: Yeah. Yeah. So powerful, Steve. I’m telling you, that is so powerful. I think you’re right. You gave me an idea, so I’m going to steal your idea. Utilizing that customer advisory board, expanding that to make it about the ICP because I think if you do it smartly, and if you do it intentionally, it almost leads itself to “Who is my ICP and who’s not?” You can sit in that room and not even open your mouth. What was beautiful yesterday—we do this quarterly and regionally. This is Midwest, next, we’re doing Northeast, then Southeast—we try to make it convenient for customers, so they don’t have to travel far. What’s nice is you ask a question and get them to engage on a topic.
[00:19:31] Baris Vural: Believe me, the topics are those four or five things that emerge, right? Then you see everyone leaning in, everyone’s engaged, and then you sit back. Honestly, you shut up, and I tell my team, “Don’t open your mouth, just shut up,” right? And listen. What are you listening for?
[00:19:51] Baris Vural: You’re listening for commonality. You’re listening for your ICP. You’re listening for what they’re agreeing on, what they’re challenging each other on, and what they’re disagreeing on. Which is fine, because it also helps you define your ICP as a CRO.
[00:20:08] Baris Vural: It’s all about efficiency, customer acquisition costs, and having your company focus on the right targets. Because if you’re talking to the wrong ICP, you drag your entire company along with you. Now, your efficiency drops, and your customer acquisition costs skyrocket, right?
[00:20:33] Steve MacDonald: And your retention rate decreases. Your NRR goes into the toilet, right? Then, there’s a tendency to say, “Well, let’s bring these outliers in a little bit.”
[00:20:47] Baris Vural: Correct, And that’s a CRO’s job. I always tell people, when I say the company, I’m talking about my BDRs, my SDRs, my marketing, my account executives, my account managers—so I [00:21:00] have everybody touching that prospect from lead gen all the way to close—and wasting their time because it wasn’t the ICP. It acted like an ICP, and smelled like it, but wasn’t. It looked like it, but it wasn’t. And then the whole company got dragged along.
[00:21:19] Baris Vural: Imagine how much time we’ve wasted on that ICP. If you extrapolate, if you had five, 10, or 20 of those, my God, think about your company’s efficiency, right? To your point, salespeople and marketing people—this goes back to alignment. If they’re not aligned on that ICP, they’re chasing. They don’t know what they’re chasing, but they’re chasing something that isn’t really going to convert. That’s on the CRO and the CMO. It’s on the CRO to tightly define. You gave me a great idea. That customer advisory board, using that to define the ICP, is the right approach.