Episode #345:

Charlie Harris, Chief Marketing Officer at Connective3, explains why past success cannot define a company’s next growth strategy. She shares how direct conversations with enterprise buyers revealed new challenges, changed positioning, and strengthened internal decisions. Charlie also explores the revenue impact of customer insight, executive events, thought leadership, and LLM search. 

“We have to think about what’s happening outside of our world, and then how do we better position ourselves to tackle those challenges. Those conversations are the evidence I need to be able to come back and have growth conversations quite confidently.” – Charlie Harris

Charlie explains why B2B leaders must test their positioning against the needs of the customers they want next, not only the customers they already serve. She shares practical ways to turn executive conversations into stronger strategy, more credible boardroom recommendations, better inbound demand, and measurable revenue growth. She also explains why LLM search and employee-led thought leadership are becoming essential growth investments.

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[Transcript]

[00:00:10] Steve MacDonald: Welcome, everyone, to the C-Suite Sales and Marketing Perspectives podcast. I’m Steve MacDonald, your host. And today, we have a very special guest, Charlie Harris. Now, Charlie, part of what I think makes you special is not just your being and who you are, right? You are the CMO of an agency that has grown tremendously in a very short period of time, from, I think you said, something like seven people to over 150. Agencies don’t usually get private equity funding. You’ve got private equity funding. There’s something very special going on. But you’re experiencing something that we all do, and we all want to plan for as we grow, and that is, as we scale the business and we go after bigger, larger enterprise clients, all of a sudden, our whole entire definition of our customer changes.

[00:01:01] Steve MacDonald: The North Star, who we listen to, who we want to make sure that we’re taking their insights and making sure that we’re making strategic decisions at every point. What happens when the customer itself, who you target, changes, and how do you scale and grow and adapt to that? That’s what we’re talking about here today. But what I would love to do is turn it over to you and have you maybe explain a little bit more about your background. More than that, I just found something very funny out about you. You said that your middle name was Margarita, and that defines a lot about you. So I’m going to let you take it from there.

[00:01:36] Charlie Harris: Specifically on the Margarita content, it’s just a cocktail that I’m very fond of, so I’m quite fortunate that it’s ended up being my middle name. Because that is brilliant. When you go to a bar and you get your ID out, it does work very well. Yes, thank you very much for having me. In terms of my background, I’ve been in agencies for about 13 years, specifically marketing agencies and digital marketing agencies. Most recently, I have worked for Connective3. So, as you mentioned, it was founded in 2019. I think originally we set out to build something that was bigger than previous agencies I’ve been in, and we surpassed that probably about maybe three years ago. So we grew a lot more quickly than we thought we would, and as you mentioned, again, most recently we received private equity investment, which is essentially going to accelerate our next stage of growth as a business.

[00:02:26] Charlie Harris: My role within that has always been marketing, but more lastly, I think, looking after the sales side as well. I think it’s given me a really interesting perspective on how the two channels can work really effectively together. But also, again, as you mentioned, I think that journey we’ve been on over time as a business has meant I’ve had to evolve as a marketer, look at different kinds of customers, position the company completely differently, and it’s been a real evolution for me. I think literally starting from marketing manager, working my way up to CMO within very similar kinds of businesses, and seeing how they can evolve and change over that time. So it’s given me a very unique perspective that I’m very grateful for.

[00:03:02] Steve MacDonald: One of the things that was fascinating in our last conversation was that you said, we’re constantly rethinking, we’re tearing up playbooks. I mean, just the disruption of AI and the fast pace that we’re going, the expectations that our clients have, that you’re going to do a lot more with a lot less, a lot faster. That we’re rethinking constantly. But there’s a dynamic in there that we don’t always rethink, and that’s our customer, and as we change customers, yesterday’s strategy won’t be the strategy that’s taking us to the next level.

[00:03:34] Steve MacDonald: So all that success that you’ve had, you’ve got to say, that’s not what’s going to get us to the next point. What do you think about that? I know that you’ve had to articulate it in board meetings and to private equity companies and say, ” This is how we’re going to grow if you invest in us. I know you’ve thought a lot about it.

[00:03:53] Charlie Harris: I’d like to say it was something that I inherently knew, but I didn’t. I actually started talking to our customers, and that was in the kind of sales capacity of my role, and realized that a lot of who I thought we were and what I thought would resonate with them didn’t anymore. I think as we’ve gone on that journey and we’ve evolved in the kind of customers that we speak to and that we need to speak to in order to grow, hearing from them, I started to realize, okay, hang on. The people we have currently as our clients, who are amazing, incredible brands and have helped us grow to the scale that we have, when you start looking at enterprise, their challenges are vastly different.

[00:04:28] Charlie Harris: For me, it’s been an education that’s come from having those conversations with clients that I’ve spoken to, and then it’s starting to see how that needs to go back into the business and inform our future marketing strategies as well. I’ve been quite fortunate in that exposure. If I hadn’t had that face-to-face, I think I probably wouldn’t have come to that conclusion. I think in organizations, you’re inclined to listen to your team, who know your clients really well. I’m not client-facing directly. I don’t work on the account. So I would trust the feedback and the input that they’re giving me on what people want in the market. But unfortunately, it’s a slight disconnect that I think you only see literally once you road test your strategy.

[00:05:06] Charlie Harris: I’m very grateful for the opportunity that I was able to have those conversations face-to-face, and then take that back and articulate that back to the board and say, hang on a second. I think there’s an opportunity here that we’re missing, which they obviously were very receptive to, which was great.

[00:05:19] Steve MacDonald: I think you said three different times something that I want to underscore, and that you were very successful in getting face-to-face with customers. It’s interesting because in a B2B organization, we don’t have roles like chief customer officer or chief experience officer. There’s nobody who’s in charge of the customer, and we tend to think we have a commercial go-to-market process that we talk to prospects and customers, so that’s good enough, and there’s significant learning there.

[00:05:50] Steve MacDonald: But just the idea of getting face-to-face, and I had one CMO on and she said, ” We’re not, Steven, in enough of the right rooms at the right time with the right people asking the right questions. And so what I was hearing through that filter was you got into the right rooms with the right customers, asking some of the right questions and getting the right input and feedback in order to change the entire strategy of the company. That’s no small feat. But it was based on our North Star, our customers.

[00:06:22] Steve MacDonald: What happens when that North Star needs to change. When the customers that you have aren’t the ones you can talk to. They’re not the people in the right room that you’re going to ask the right questions to, because they no longer represent who you’re going after. How do you get that face-to-face time? How do you understand the audience you’re going after, not the audience you’re serving?

[00:06:46] Charlie Harris: For me, we have a very robust events budget, so we use that to do a lot of the one-to-one executive meeting kind of style events, and the primary objective of those events is to come back with new business leads. That’s always what they are, and everybody who’s at CMO level will have been invited to these, attended these, I imagine. The difference is sometimes, yes, okay, you might want those leads off the back of it, but actually, the conversations you’re having can be just as valuable because when are you going to sit in a room with 15 to 20 senior executives, enterprise brands, and I’m talking Unilevers and HSBCs of the world. These are big companies. What you start to see in those conversations is the threads that connect them, the challenges that they’re facing.

[00:07:28] Charlie Harris: It wasn’t my intention going into that room to find out more about them with a view to better change our service offering or anything like that. It was more to try and see how we were positioned to sell to them, and then you start to realize in those conversations, actually, the challenges they’re facing are not the challenges that you’re wanting to solve, and you have to then pivot from there. So I remember in one specific solution, it’s an ongoing thing about brand and performance and where you invest your budget. Every performance marketer will know about it. Most CMOs deal with that as a challenge, and we built a measurement solution to tackle it. But only when I started speaking to enterprise-level brands did I realize our solution was essentially inferior to their data stack, and we literally couldn’t plug the two together.

[00:08:11] Charlie Harris: I think that kind of conversation would only happen in the context of us having had that service, me having understood it, and then sat and listened to the challenges they’re facing and how they’re addressing them and thinking, okay, there’s a disconnect here. So whilst things like that, that product still had value for a certain customer; it wasn’t that customer. I think it’s those kinds of conversations that are just so powerful for helping you update your strategies, change your approach.

[00:08:36] Steve MacDonald: Events are a very important part of the go-to-market strategy and putting these roundtable events together. One of the most powerful things is that it’s not a pitch. The unit leaders, like the representatives you had come in there, they have value because they get to hear from their peers. It’s a very win-win environment. But is that environment, one of the aspects that’s important about that environment is that people are just talking openly and honestly because they’re not in a pitch. They’re not getting sold to. They don’t have to hold their cards against their chest and only divulge a little bit because they’re getting sold to.

[00:09:14] Steve MacDonald: Is that environment, that’s one really great example of we’re not in enough of the right rooms talking to the right people, asking the right questions. How important is that dynamic to getting that kind of feedback, in addition to getting leads, obviously, because you’re establishing relationships?

[00:09:31] Charlie Harris: It’s incredibly important. I mean, even if it was me and somebody rang me on the phone, random day of the week, and started asking me what my challenges as a marketer are, I don’t have time for that or interest in that. But if I’m having an open and honest conversation, I sat and spoke to a marketing director at Nike, and the first thing I said is, “We’re too small to fulfill what you need.” She had a global account with a big networked agency, and it was actually quite beneficial to put that to one side and say, tell me about what you’re doing. Tell me what’s working. Tell me what’s not working. It was a much more relaxed, open, and honest discussion. Because realistically, when am I going to get 15 minutes of that marketing director’s time? You just couldn’t do that. So, unless I’m stuck in an elevator with them, it wouldn’t happen.

[00:10:11] Charlie Harris: Use those experiences. Don’t just go into those experiences thinking, I need to sell, otherwise it’s a wasted experience. It’s not. The insights you can take away are so valuable. Even if you’re using them, like I said, about strategies in the business, they’re beneficial there. But from a content perspective, that perspective, they’re super valuable as well. So I’m prolific on posting on LinkedIn. I had a conversation with this company, and this is what we found, and this is what we talked about; it’s really great content for people to engage with. It also shows that you are understanding the challenges again of the customer across different sectors, different sizes. There are a lot of ways in which you can take that content, that conversation, and activate it other than just a cold selling environment. But it wouldn’t happen unless you were in that room, I don’t believe.

[00:10:58] Steve MacDonald: So the idea here, because access to executives is getting harder and harder. I talk to CRO after CRO, and they’re like, yeah, getting a hold of the right people, and then even the time between the first call and the second call is longer and longer, and the calls are getting shorter and shorter. What you’re learning there is tied directly to what they are saying when I ask, “What is the competitive advantage of your sales organization?” They say 100 percent, it’s the insights that their sales team has to establish the rapport and the relationship, and not feel like they’re just vendors pitching, but they’re actually in a dialogue.

[00:11:41] Steve MacDonald: Because I could only guess that when you have a number of these conversations, you are taking elements of what happened in this conversation and saying, you know, I talked to this other CMO, and they’re. And you’re cross-pollinating ideas, and you’re sharing, and you’re adding value. It’s not a pitch.

[00:11:58] Steve MacDonald: The more you learn those insights, and the more valuable those relationships become, and the value you can garner out of it, you can provide into it. I just want to make that the bigger point here is you have stepped out of the commercial go-to-market process to have conversations that fuel your entire strategy. If I just put it in a short sentence. Is that a good takeaway?

[00:12:25] Charlie Harris: No, absolutely, and I was thinking about when we spoke about what makes an engaging kind of piece of content like this, and you were saying about storytelling. Anecdotes that I have in conversations with one brand, I will absolutely take to another brand. No one’s talking about specific data or anything that’s proprietary. It’s kind of collective challenges, and they like hearing that too. So the marketing directors you’re speaking to, the reason the executives go to those events is not to meet vendors. I’d be very lucky if they’re coming because they have a great big brief and they’re ready to give me a million pounds. That’d be fantastic.

[00:12:56] Charlie Harris: But they’re going because they want to meet their peers. They want to meet other marketing directors and CMOs of global businesses and discuss those challenges. When you have those conversations, and you talk about things, those anecdotes of other conversations you’ve had with them, I think it shows a kind of mutual connection, almost that you’re in the same kind of playing field as them, and they can have those kinds of conversations with you.

[00:13:17] Charlie Harris: The other point I was going to make is that I went to an event not long ago, and they said that in B2B, it was a study and I can’t remember who did it, but eight touchpoints is how many it takes to convert, and that could be a like on a LinkedIn post through to a meeting at a CMO event. That journey is so important. Obviously, you’re never going to walk in, meet someone, and sign them there and then. It just doesn’t happen anymore, and you talked about the protracted sales cycle and how difficult it is to convert, and it’s getting even harder. I think if you can take valuable experiences away at each of those eight touchpoints that aren’t, “Here’s our product. Here’s our product.” Then you have a much stronger chance of converting that client when you do get to pitch stage. So I’m very focused on that as well.

[00:13:56] Charlie Harris: You just can’t win the kind of size of brands that we want to work with now with a, you know, pick up the phone, nice to meet you, let’s sell that in. It doesn’t work that way anymore. It has to be that kind of more protracted sales cycle, and hopefully we’ve found a way of making valuable connections at each of those eight touchpoints.

[00:14:14] Steve MacDonald: What I love is what you’re also doing is, because there’s a lot of CMOs that I talk to that feel like they have imposter syndrome. They’re looked upon as one of the biggest cost centers in their business. They’re as good as their last lead. They don’t have a seat at the table. What you’re doing is, you are creating a seat at a customer table. That is bringing value and feedback in. There is no higher role for the CMO to play internally in an organization than to represent the voice of their customers.

[00:14:48] Steve MacDonald: There is such important learning to have outside of the sales process, outside of the go-to-market process, learning inside the sales process too. But what you’re describing is just getting into an environment where they don’t feel like they’re in a sales environment, and that you’re starting relationships. We’re a relationship-based business. You cannot wait till the last minute. When they have a brief, they’ve probably put out an RFP, they’ve got a short list, and they’ve already invited agencies on a list. If you’re not on a list, you’re out. So, it’s about being known and trusted in advance, and you’re creating an important touchpoint to be known and trusted in advance. The whole other benefit level here is just establishing those relationships in new, innovative, and strategic ways. So, that’s just another massive benefit of getting in front of the right people and just establishing that rapport.

[00:15:48] Steve MacDonald: I want to loop this back to internal thinking in the company, because we’re all C-suite executives. We know what to do. We can make decisions, right. We’ve made all kinds of decisions on our own. We’re big boys and girls, right. So, how do we use this as leverage, as a change agent internally. You talked about feedback loops and stress testing, and so, how does this actually change direction in the company?

[00:16:21] Charlie Harris: So, you mentioned about being a CMO and having a seat at the table and a voice at the table, and I think the credibility that comes from being able to have high-level discussions with your target customers carries, not just with your customers, but also when you’re back in the boardroom. When you can come in and bring those conversations you’ve had back into the room and say, “Okay, you think this is going to work for these clients. Here are these three that I’ve spoken to where I explained this offering, and it doesn’t resonate with them.” At that point, I’m not saying, “Tear it up, put it in the bin, let’s get rid of it.” I’m saying, this is how I think we need to shift it in order to better align with what they’re trying to achieve.

[00:17:00] Charlie Harris: Alternatively, there is a market for this product. It’s not that customer. It maybe needs to be a customer of a smaller company size, or a different target territory, or a different target product, or whatever it might be. I always try to go into those conversations with, firstly, the evidence. I’ve had this conversation. I think perhaps this isn’t quite right. And then, a solution off the back of it, which is, okay, this is how I think we should try and reposition it, and then we go and we try it again.

[00:17:26] Charlie Harris: In my experience, I think people are quite receptive to that because I think, particularly in agencies, I don’t know if it’s the case across all B2B businesses, but we can become very insular. And the agency ecosystem, if you think about the kind of brands we work with, it’s everything from finance to travel to retail. It’s everything. B2B as well. The challenges are vastly different. There’s no way we understand what’s going on. Even compliance and regulatory issues could be things we’re not aware of. So, I think it’s important that we take outside perspectives. We have to think about what’s happening outside of our world, and then how do we better position ourselves to tackle those challenges. Those conversations are the evidence I need to come back and have those conversations with confidence.

[00:18:12] Steve MacDonald: So, how does that impact your role as a CMO. We have a lot of conversations about the revenue logic of customer obsession, learning from customers, translating that, having to be a change agent internally so that it can help grow, scale the business, impact revenue. We’re all beat over the head as CMOs. You have to be very pipeline focused. You have to be very revenue focused, right.

[00:18:42] Steve MacDonald: How do you connect the whole conversation we’re having here and the strategy of the conversations, and bring it back internally. How do you connect it to revenue? Because, bottom line, everybody on that board, that’s all they’re thinking about, right.

[00:18:55] Charlie Harris: Yeah. So, again, mentioned that we started seven years ago. So, across that time, we’ve obviously grown substantially, going from, let’s say, 2 million in revenue to now 10 million in revenue as a company, and it’s still growing, obviously. I know exactly how much of that has been delivered through marketing-specific activity, and I’m at a point now, at this stage, where in our business anyway, inbound leads are our primary revenue driver. They are the growth engine, and not by a small margin, by a significant margin. Which is fantastic. It was my plan all along. But it’s wonderful to see it come to life and show up in the numbers, because you mentioned imposter syndrome. Yeah, you have a great strategy. You think it’s all going to work, but does it actually work in the end? Thankfully, mine do.

[00:19:36] Charlie Harris: So, that’s given me a lot of credibility in those conversations, in that I do understand our positioning in the market. I understand what products are going to resonate, and you can see it reflected in the kind of leads we’re getting, the kind of services that they’re interested in, and the caliber of brands that we’re working with as well. I talked to you when we spoke on our last call about laddering of clients. I’m so proud to see, over time, those bigger household name brands are contacting us without us having to go out to them, and I think that’s the thing that you need to show: that strategy’s working. That when you are shifting and changing services that maybe aren’t as effective, and then you do change them, you push your marketing strategy live, and then you start seeing the leads come in off the back of that, that obviously then converts to revenue.

[00:20:20] Charlie Harris: That gives you what you need to build a foundation to continue to pull and tease on things that have to change. So, I’m really passionate as a marketer. Don’t just focus on lead volume or anything like that. Yes, it’s great, it’s fantastic, but you have to look at revenue as well. It has to be there. I think often marketers can hide from the revenue because it’s a little bit separate from what we do. Other people are often responsible for conversion. We might not see the end pipelines. But you have to get closer to that, because once you have that information, your whole marketing strategy that’s fueling it becomes much more powerful, and you become more of a significant voice in the conversations that influence where budget goes, where targeting of the company goes, and the kind of customers that you should be selling to. So, that’s where my head goes with it.

[00:21:04] Steve MacDonald: You talk about how proud you are that customers are reaching out to you, like prospects are reaching out to you. Inbound is so important, and one of the big factors today, and I know you have a lot to say on it, is LLM search. Ask engine optimization, whatever we want to call it, because a vast majority of the buying journey is happening inside of the LLMs now. What’s your perspective on that in an inbound strategy, and, like, we all want companies contacting us. That’s the perfect situation.

[00:21:35] Charlie Harris: So, I could talk about this for hours, but I think it’s important to invest in an inbound engine. I think it’s important to know that it will not happen overnight. You’re talking years of time to actually build it to a level where it’s starting to fuel itself, essentially. With us, we’re very fortunate in that the company that I work within has always had a big belief in thought leadership content, and in driving brand visibility, but also inbound leads. We have a whole organization that’s geared towards creating content, posting on social, really amplifying themselves as individuals. So, it’s not just marketing. Every person in the business is an extension of the marketing team, and we are also a search agency at our core.

[00:22:13] Charlie Harris: So, when LLMs obviously started taking over a lot of the Google search traffic, we were very well poised to position ourselves to try and capture some of that demand. I will caveat that by saying that B2B is a sector that’s seen the largest increase in LLM direct inquiries of any sector that I’ve seen. We’re in the right place at the right time, and I would advise anyone working in B2B to really make LLM search or AEO part of your strategy if you’re not already. The thought leadership that I mentioned has been incredibly powerful in fueling that visibility within those search engines.

[00:22:46] Charlie Harris: So, we do a lot of analysis into what’s driving LLM results and rankings, and there are three kind of core things that we always identify as being effective, and that’s citations. We call it link building, digital PR, but obviously, getting citations on other websites. There’s Reddit, which we know is very difficult to influence, but obviously is influencing a lot of those LLM engines, and then the third thing is social media, and specifically LinkedIn. So, we are, like I said, prolific on LinkedIn. We’re constantly posting on LinkedIn, and our LLM search, everything we put live seems to rank incredibly quickly. And at the moment, it’s kind of a black box for a lot of the sites.

[00:23:25] Charlie Harris: You can theorize about what the reasons are. There’s no concrete data behind it. I could be wrong, since this is one of those things that changes so quickly. I don’t think we can find that information. But what I do know is if we put a page live on our website targeting a sector or whatever, it will rank within LLMs fairly quickly. The reason I’m aware of that is that I can literally see the traffic coming to the site and the conversion. So, some of our conversions will straightaway say referred by ChatGPT, and HubSpot says that for you now, so you know where it’s come from. But some of them, you’re seeing this search journey on site, which is just literally homepage, contact, homepage, contact. So, you know, based on that, these people are finding you somewhere else. I know they’re not in our ecosystem in our CRM. I know I haven’t met them at events. So, the logical conclusion I’m drawing at the end of all of this is LLMs, and this is my last point in this.

[00:24:15] Charlie Harris: The swing has been huge for us. So, last year, 13% of our revenue from inbound came from the website. This year, 70% has come from the website, which is a huge swing, and it’s just showing, I think, a fundamental change in the way buyers are searching for their partners in B2B. It’s a great opportunity for all B2B marketers.

[00:24:38] Steve MacDonald: So, I have to ask you this, and thank you. You very, very articulately laid that out. Is that thought leadership can be one of those things that it’s like, yes, I know marketing’s doing thought leadership. I know it’s good, and we have to have that presence. We have to build our brand, and it’s long-term, and right. But it just becomes one of those words like value and like thought leadership and brand that people say, like at a board level, like very few people in a board meeting are going, “How is our thought leadership strategy going, Charlie?” Nobody’s asking for that. Nobody’s even holding you accountable for that, because they go, “Eh, I know that’s something the marketing guys do,” right.

[00:25:17] Steve MacDonald: But you’re connecting directly to growth in the business, inbound lead generation that’s turned to revenue, and that you can track it and you can see it. You’re putting together a very tight case that lifts the priority or the importance of thought leadership, and you’ve got to do thought leadership right. You’re just not like, we’re just going to create more content. You’ve got to, like, really work at it. But is that a good takeaway, that the importance of thought leadership, beyond where we have traditionally always looked at it as an important part of a go-to-market strategy, has even gotten even more important? Is that a takeaway you would like to have us have?

[00:26:02] Charlie Harris: It absolutely has. I think the other thing that’s happened, which is important to reference here, is that marketing budgets are smaller than they’ve ever been. Everybody knows your budget’s being squeezed. And in essence, thought leadership, the kind that I’m talking about, I’m not talking about promoted content. I’m talking about internal advocacy, encouraging your team to post, publish, and share anything. We mentioned content, but it could be about the work they’re doing; it could be about neurodivergency; it could be about their career progression. But as long as it relates back to the company in terms of that content, it’s building that engine. I was saying, all of this, it doesn’t cost you anything. This isn’t something that I’m paying significant sums of money for. There’s an internal time education piece.

[00:26:43] Charlie Harris: The events I mentioned to you, the executive events, you’re talking 30, 40, 50,000 pounds, if not more. This is just time spent internally to leverage the employees that you have in your business to really empower your marketing. I think it’s something that everybody should be doing if you’re not, because at any budget level, it’s a really effective use of marketing strategy.

[00:27:04] Steve MacDonald: I would love to go on forever because this has been absolutely fascinating. But what I wanted to give you is just one opportunity, because we’ve said so much here, and our poor human brains can only take in two or three things at a time and retain them. If you could pull it all together and say, out of the entire conversation, if there was one thing that you wanted the C-suite executives that are going to be consuming this podcast to take away from our conversation, what would that be?

[00:27:29] Charlie Harris: It’s no surprise, but go and spend some time on your LLM strategies, because I think with search, the earlier you start doing things, the faster you will get the returns, and the more likely you will remain the market leader in that space. Not everybody’s doing this. There is a lot of, I think, misinformation and misunderstanding about it, but I can categorically tell you it will drive growth for your business, and it’s outstripping everything that I thought I knew in terms of growth. That would be my takeaway.

[00:27:59] Steve MacDonald: I think the other thing that I took away from what you said there is that you have a requirement on your team to be prolific. The resource called employees is a tremendous asset that can grow and have impact in networks that are active on LinkedIn, Reddit, and things like that. The idea that your own employees are a resource to push thought leadership out is not something we typically do. That was a big takeaway that I had, that you were saying is that you, in particular, are prolific, but it’s an understanding on your team that’s part of the game too, right. Is that we’re all prolific on here.

[00:28:42] Steve MacDonald: I just wanted to say, the whole mission of this podcast is to bring very unique, interesting insights from different perspectives, different backgrounds, different education, from C-suite executives from all over the world behind B2B companies that are in an ABM go-to-market motion, and if we can learn from each other, then that’s the rising tide that lifts all boats. You were an amazing part of that rising tide today, and I just wanted to say, Charlie, thank you for coming on.

[00:29:09] Charlie Harris: Thank you very much for having me. I appreciate it. Very interesting discussion.