💡 Efrat Ravid, Chief Marketing Officer at Quantum Metric, talks about her inspiring journey from software engineering to becoming a marketing leader. She highlights the critical importance of aligning executive teams to drive strategic growth. Efrat shares practical strategies for CMOs to leverage customer insights, reduce churn, and build lasting success. 💡

“The most important thing for any chief is alignment. The best companies are aligned—the CROs, CPOs, chief customer officers, and CMOs all sing the same song so the entire team can work in harmony. This alignment helps them perform well and move in the same direction.” – Efrat Ravid

Efrat Ravid’s insights underscore the CMO’s critical role in fostering alignment among executive teams and ensuring the customer’s voice is central to strategic decision-making. She emphasizes the importance of balancing day-to-day execution with forward-thinking innovation to stay competitive in dynamic markets. Additionally, she highlights the need for CMOs to address challenges like customer churn while consistently driving measurable value across the organization. 

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[Transcript]

[00:00:00] Steve MacDonald: Welcome everyone to the C-Suite Sales and Marketing Perspectives Podcast. I’m Steve MacDonald, your host. Today, we have a very esteemed guest.

[00:00:12] Steve MacDonald: We have Efrat Ravid. And Efrat, you are not only a three-time CMO, you’re also a value accelerator advisor with Goldman Sachs. The company that you’re CMO at right now, you just closed a hundred million dollar round. You have been involved in so many big deals in so many ways. I’m going to turn it over to you and maybe explain, even expand a little bit more on that background and then we’ll dig into the subject matter today.

[00:00:37] Efrat Ravid: Absolutely. Steve, thank you so much for having me here today. Super excited to talk about executive CMO, how we are coaching all the fun stuff, and leadership. Just a little background about myself. I started as a software engineer. So, I’m a geek. I spent a lot of time in development in the manufacturing bill of material, PLC, and robotics and 10 years in a company named SolidWorks, which is part of the SoSystem. It’s a computer-aided design company where I was very technical in product management and solution engineering, doing demos, and implementation.

[00:01:14] Efrat Ravid: One day the CEO asked me to be a product manager for a product. We decided to move the product to serve the competitors as well, to open it up to competition. I knew it would create some ramble with the sales team, but we saw the CEO and I that it was a good idea and we should do it. We did a lot of work with India and the legal team and this product created 400,000 leads a year.

[00:01:44] Efrat Ravid: It was super interesting to a company that started with a channel. We never had so many leads, and we decided to see how we provide these leads, and distribute them to the channel, almost like building a shark tank. How we score the leads, how we create an insight cell that defines the leads and creates a relationship, how we do lead nurturing.

[00:02:04] Efrat Ravid: Every time more things happen and I got more and more part of the marketing team, I think I was ahead of the marketing that this is how I move from loving engineering and being a geek to marketing and to events and to customer marketing and to lead generation and growth. And it was an amazing experience.

[00:02:25] Efrat Ravid: Over time, I’ve been a CMO of a company named Click Software and then Content Square where I was the first employee in the U.S. five and a half years ago, I joined Quantum Metric. Last year we crossed a hundred million dollars ARR and this year we will be profitable so it was a very good ride.

[00:02:42] Efrat Ravid: Because I have so much energy, I wanted to do more and I’m advising different companies. One of them, I was on the board advising that Tara for many years is an amazing Israeli company. Finnegan and I were on the board of Lumaps, which is a French company that was just sold to private equity for 650 million.

[00:03:02] Efrat Ravid: Goldman Sachs was the main investor. They asked me to join Goldman Sachs as a value accelerator, meaning helping other companies also to grow in the U.S. and to build this engine of growth of the right messaging to the last company and this is why I’m doing both and I’m enjoying it.

[00:03:21] Steve MacDonald: I got to tell you something. I’m exhausted in a good way from listening to all of that, what you’ve accomplished. It’s amazing. Here’s the thing that I think we want to explore on the podcast today there’s a very typical transcribed viewpoint on what the role of a CMO is in that executive role.

[00:03:42] Steve MacDonald: And then you’ve also been on the advisor side, the highest level from like a Goldman Sachs and on down. There are very different roles that they can come in and different perspectives. You’ve played both together. What’s the difference between the CMO role and the advisor role and what can we learn from that and through your extensive experiences?

[00:04:08] Efrat Ravid: Yeah. To be honest, I actually learn every day on both sides. I’m learning how to be a better leader and a better executor and working better with alignment, with a CRO, the chief customer officer, and the product team. I think that’s the most important thing about any chief. They need to be aligned with their colleagues and the best companies are aligned.

[00:04:32] Efrat Ravid: Best customers, the CROs, the CPOs, the chief customer officers, and the CMO, all sing the same song. So the entire team can sing the same song. They do well and go to the same place. As an advisor, I learned to see it in the execution, not only at the execution level but at the high level. When I was only a CMO, I think it mainly is my first job. I thought my job was to protect my team. I was fighting for the budget. I would fight for more people. I would fight to make sure that the marketing is being helped. I was super proud of that. I’m like, my team was very strong.

[00:05:13] Efrat Ravid: We had strong marketing. We grew a lot and we grew as a company. After 2022 happened when we understand that we need to do more with less. Especially the go-to-market got hit the most, like you need the cost of acquisition was questioned. Does it need to cost so much money to bring a customer?

[00:05:34] Efrat Ravid: I, through my advising, understood that you actually can do much more with less, and giving the advice is easier than actually doing it. I think because I have both hats. After all, not only do I need to tell the company, I need to learn how to save and I need to learn how to do more with less, and you need to do more to get the cost acquisition less.

[00:06:01] Efrat Ravid: I need to do it myself. I need to tell it to myself and my team. I need to look at my budgets and say, doesn’t it make sense to have this budget? Can I do more than this? Can I have fewer people in the content team and still create a lot of content using Gen AI? Have less SDR team and bring them to a higher level with other tools. Can I help the sales team in places that are struggling to move the sale?

[00:06:24] Efrat Ravid: The opportunity for stage one to close, is it a marketing job? And if so, how can you attribute it to the marketing? So you explain the team and the sales team. This is where we have. So all these questions, and the advice I give, I need to do myself. So it makes it on the one hand hard on the other thing, much more reliable for me and for the teams I advise.

[00:06:50] Steve MacDonald: It’s interesting because I played a consultant role too. Not like you have, you’re very well versed in this, but you can see sometimes your client’s eyes glazing over because as you’re giving them recommendations, you could just see them thinking.

[00:07:05] Steve MacDonald: How am I going to do that? How am I going to have the resources to do that? I don’t have the time in my day already to do what I’m doing. So merging execution and advice. So one of the things that I want to ask, there’s a difference really in the time pressures, the strategic goals, the decision-making challenges.

[00:07:28] Steve MacDonald: I talked to a lot of CMOs. Quite frankly, have an imposter syndrome and they even say that and they say, it’s hard to earn a seat at the table. They’re an executive in the company now and as an executive in the company, they have their CMO departmental role, but they are also now responsible for the long-term strategic growth of the business and where it’s going. What I’m wondering is, what have you learned that you could talk to CMOs, give advice, and say, here’s how you have a seat at the table. Here’s how to establish your seat at the table by playing both sides, the advisor and the CMO.

[00:08:11] Efrat Ravid: Absolutely. So the power in the company is for three things.

[00:08:15] Efrat Ravid: Especially in SaaS companies, let’s talk in SaaS companies, and then we can talk of different companies, but in SaaS companies, the power is in the product delivering an innovation. This is why the CPO has such a strong seat at the table. They bring the product. That is what we said. Teams that bring the money, the CRO, they bring the money. We all need to respect them, and the CMO, many times, looks like, especially to the CFO, a cost item. We are like a liability. We have a cost, so how do you bring your value? I always say that there is only one way to bring the value. We are the head of marketing. Our job is to understand the market the best.

[00:08:53] Efrat Ravid: Our job is to understand our customers the best. If we bring the voice of the customer to the table, then we have a seat at the table. It’s not only the pipeline. Of course, we need to bring the pipeline. But to bring a good pipeline that will close, it’s only if we understand the customer.

[00:09:10] Efrat Ravid: CMO, in my opinion, needs to spend at least 20% of the time with customers. They need to listen to the customer talking. You need to understand what they are saying. You need to understand how to work with the sales team, not only with the C-level but also with the AEs.

[00:09:27] Efrat Ravid: Really listen to the customer. I spend a lot of time with customers. I love my favorite part of my job is to be an executive sponsor for one, for a few accounts. I see it as a privilege to go to the QBR physically or on Zoom. I enjoy talking to customers, to prospects, and to even prospects that I don’t think we’ll ever close.

[00:09:50] Efrat Ravid: Maybe they’re not prospects to understand the why. I love calling customers that we lost and understanding the why and not only reading reports. I think that’s our seat at the table. Understand the market. Of course, you need to talk to analysts, Gartner, and Forrester. Of course, you need to talk to internal people, really a reason to sit at the table is to understand the customers deeply.

[00:10:17] Steve MacDonald: I love it. I have about 5 questions I want to ask you about what you just said there. But the first one was the voice of the highest authority in any company is the customer and there’s too often, in my opinion, I want your opinion on this.

[00:10:33] Steve MacDonald: There’s nobody that’s in charge of the voice of the customer, the insights. It’s not sales. That’s not their job. It’s not customer success. It’s not their job. The CMO departmentalized on marketing a lot of the time. There are too many companies in my opinion that don’t have somebody that has taken on that mantle to say, I represent the voice of the highest authority in every decision we make.

[00:11:00] Steve MacDonald: That’s why Amazon has that empty chair policy, this empty chair that represents the customer in every meeting. As if, if the customer were sitting with us today, how would we be making decisions differently? I love that. But I also talked to literally this morning, a CMO who said I don’t have the time to do that. I don’t have the time to spend.

[00:11:20] Steve MacDonald: You just said 20 percent of your time. There’s not a CMO alive who says, “I got a lot of time on my hands, Steve, what can I do with it?” But you’re recommending 20% of the time. What do you say to CMOs who don’t see it as their job to be that voice of the customer or just don’t have the time?

[00:11:40] Efrat Ravid: I don’t know if it’s okay to say, but I’m big on sports. I think that you need to start the day with at least one hour to do something, swimming in the ocean, running, so I hugely believe that. People say, I don’t have time, I have kids, I have my full-time job and I don’t have time.

[00:12:00] Efrat Ravid: My answer is to wake up one hour early. That’s my answer. Wake up one hour earlier to call customers. I rally don’t think there are excuses. I don’t think there is something more important that you can do. Try to manage your time better. Try to cancel internal meetings, make them half an hour, not an hour.

[00:12:21] Efrat Ravid: I think it’s the most important thing we can do as CMOs, especially since we’re responsible for messaging. I don’t know any CMOs that will say I’m not responsible for the brand and the message. How can we be responsible for the brand and message without getting the customer, the voice of the customer?

[00:12:37] Efrat Ravid: To be honest, it’s all about the team we hire. There are a lot of key people on the team, but the most important team members are the product marketing. The product marketing job is a VOC, the voice of the customers. Their job is to bring the product to the customers. In the language of the customer, their job is to understand the stories, and the use cases of every small customer.
[00:13:02] Efrat Ravid: Their job is a customer advisory board, managing the relationships there. Their job is to understand the user conference and the agenda. So every part of that forces them to spend a lot of time with the customers. Win-loss analysis. How can we do a win-loss analysis without talking to customers? So I do think it’s a product marketing team responsible for the voice of the customer in a company.

[00:13:26] Efrat Ravid: Once you have that, you own this team, it’s part of your job to understand. I’m all about outsourcing. I would outsource everything except for, what I call the brain, and the brain is a relationship with the customer. Even when we do a user conference, we decide to do everything internally, every touch of, who’s that we have with the customers is internal people, even the welcomes, the registration, the showing people where to go. I can hire very low-wage people to help them, but I want my customer success to help people sit down. I want them to ask them, how are you? I want them to say, hi, Steve MacDonald. I know you’re from this company. How are you today?

[00:14:03] Efrat Ravid: So every relationship you can do with a customer, I highly recommend not to outsource. Everything else, as far as I’m concerned, can do a GNF. All answers.

[00:14:17] Steve MacDonald: Let me ask you a question on this because definitely there’s a lot of differences, and I’m taking a little bit of a right turn here, but the bottom line is, I was taking so many notes, you could probably see I was writing things down and learning myself as we’re going along here.

[00:14:30] Steve MacDonald: This is fantastic. I know that there are companies that are watching right now and executives that are watching that are at startups, that are mid-market companies, that are companies that are really growing and accelerating fast. How does all of this work at different stages of the company? It represents the voice of the customer.

[00:14:49] Steve MacDonald: Is it different at different stages or is it the same? It’s just in, and is it always something you should be doing or is it something that just at certain stages of growth is important to you?

[00:14:59] Efrat Ravid: Yeah. So, I’m sure of course it’s different between a company that has a very small team to a company that has a bigger team.

[00:15:05] Efrat Ravid: The companies that have an established customer base and they know who they are selling to, a company that’s just really learning who is the ICP, who is the ideal customer, and you need to spend more time. If you are still figuring out who is your ICP, who is the buyer, and how to get to the C-level, then as a CMO, you need to spend much more time with your customer than the customers who figured it out and now just making the machine work better.

[00:15:31] Efrat Ravid: When the machine works, if it’s all about the machine, everything is super clear and it’s all about the machine. You need to spend more time internally compared to what you need to understand. My biggest concern with companies, even if they are in the growth stage, that spend too much time internally and less time externally is that the external change and customer need change.

[00:15:52] Efrat Ravid: If I look at retail, for example, they changed in the last two years so much. If I figured out, okay, I know how to sell to retail and I know what is on the line, in the last two years, so much change for them. If I didn’t talk to them regularly, I would lose it. I would miss it. I won’t change my messaging.

[00:16:09] Efrat Ravid: I want my product. I want you in my pricing. I want my packaging just to fit there, then, so even customer companies that feel that they completely figured it out, I recommend continuously learning about your customers because their environment changes. I wish it was the same, but oh, maybe I want to change that.

[00:16:30] Efrat Ravid: I want everything to change all the time, but you have to learn. So for companies, I would just summarize what I said. If you haven’t figured out your ICP, spend a lot of time with customers and prospects and the market, and even in the companies that you are trying to sell to, try to understand who is your buyer, who is the budget owner, and who could be your distractor.

[00:16:55] Efrat Ravid: You want to win the hearts of your distractors as much as you want to win the hearts of the people that you know will be your main evangelists. But the companies that figured it out and more work to make it better and make the operation better still spend some time with customers because if something changes there, don’t figure it out too late. So that’s what I recommend.

[00:17:17] Steve MacDonald: I love this. I’m going to run this as an idea by you because I did a lot of fractional work as well with B2B companies and my takeaway was that all these companies had a very high degree of familiarity with their ICP, but very few had a deep understanding of their ICP.

[00:17:36] Steve MacDonald: We’re talking about them all the time. We’re planning, we’re tracking, we’ve got ongoing calls and recordings with prospects, and customer service is talking to them. Why do I need to do more? Isn’t that enough? That’s the mentality. I would come in as an advisor and I would talk about how we needed to have an ongoing exploration of our customers and our ICP.

[00:17:59] Steve MacDonald: Sometimes I would get looked at like, we got it, Steve MacDonald. We understand this. What’s your point of view? You’ve advised a lot of different companies. Is this something that you think most companies have down or is this systemically something that customers or companies need to dive into this voice of the customer constantly, continuously listening and talking with their customers?

[00:18:22] Efrat Ravid: So, I worked in Quantum Metric for five and a half years and I did customer advisory boards, meaning twice a year we met the C-level in a very small setting. I talk to customers regularly and I still don’t think that I’ve completely figured it out, to be honest, and the reason for that, again, is because it’s changing all the time, the product is changing, the environment is changing, and it’s not the one time, even if it’s true for now, I understand the pain, I understand the values that we provide.

[00:18:56] Efrat Ravid: I understand how we can add value today, tomorrow things change, the manufacturing changes, the digital changes, those Gen AI, our product changes, and it’s impacted differently. I think if everything stays the same, five and a half years ago when I stayed, when I joined Quantum Metric and now, maybe I would figure it out by now, and I don’t need to talk to customers so much.

[00:19:20] Efrat Ravid: But look at the airlines, airlines is one of the categories that we excel. So, much change there, compared to COVID and then after COVID and then seasonality and the consumer behavior change. There are so many things that are changing that the customer has to change. Another thing is that even internally in the customer base, people are moving from one company to another. 

[00:19:58] Efrat Ravid: You want to develop this relationship only to help you as a CMO because I always want to have to text the CDO of this airline or that airline and ask them, what do you think about this question? How would you do that? So I want to do a rebranding. What do you think about this message compared to another, or even if there is a new competitor in town, I want to hear my customers and what they think about this. If we have this relationship, I’m not afraid to ask them.

[00:20:14] Efrat Ravid: This is why it’s so important to have this relationship. So it’s not only the messaging, but also developing the deep relationship, and also things are changing all the time. So I don’t think anything is static in marketing. I don’t know if any CMO will tell you, “Yeah, it’s the same as I worked three years ago.” Everything is changing.

[00:20:33] Steve MacDonald: I think there was another question I was going to ask that you just answered in spades, and it was, what’s the danger of playbooks and solutions where we’re like, “This is the way that’s always worked and we’ve had success and we know what we’re doing. We’ve got the playbook.” Where’s the danger in saying, “Here’s our playbook. We’ve got to figure it out”?

[00:20:55] Efrat Ravid: So, this is the 1 billion or the 10 billion question, because on the one hand, as an advisor or as an investor, you want to tell the company you’re working with, “Here are another 20 companies that did this, and they grew 20 percent or 40 percent or 100 percent irreversibly parallel where they are in their growth.”

[00:21:15] Efrat Ravid: This is the playbook you need to do. On the other hand, the most successful companies in the world—Airbnb, Uber, Google, name them, Amazon—created their playbook. They did their own thing to be successful. So who am I as an advisor to tell them, “This is the only way, and follow it”?

[00:21:34] Efrat Ravid: It’s almost like school; I want my kids to be creative and not follow every instruction in the school because otherwise, it would be exactly like everyone else. But if they won’t follow them and they will fail, how can you help them? So I think knowing what works and knowing the best practices is one thing and understanding, does it work for me? And if not, why?

[00:21:52] Efrat Ravid: If not, this is why I want to do it differently. I think it’s something you need that I call the business gut feeling. You have to have the business gut feeling of your business to know it deep enough to know that, although it works for other companies, for me, it’s not. It can be even like in an org chart.

[00:22:18] Efrat Ravid: I saw many times an investor come with, “This is an org chart that the SaaS company needs to have.” But the best companies have something completely different. But so what? So, you need to be close to yourself and understand what works for you, for your company, and more importantly, for your customers, and what doesn’t, and be able to say, “This is why I decided to change it. I understand that this is how other companies act at this stage, but this is why I want to do something different.”

[00:22:47] Steve MacDonald: So, I want to spend two hours. There are so many questions I have, but there was an area in a previous conversation we had that we started talking about addressing issues on churn and value creation, which seemed like very different separate topics, churn, and value creation.

[00:23:00] Steve MacDonald: But how are you looking at those together? What are the issues that you’ve seen as an advisor and CMO and all these roles that you’d like to talk about today?

[00:23:12] Efrat Ravid: Yeah. In the last couple of years, companies have been looking at, “Do I have too many tools?” I think I have to—like the CFO comes to them and says, “You have too many tools.”

[00:23:22] Efrat Ravid: They’re all overlapping. More and more companies are using overlapping tools. Do you need all these tools? So more and more SaaS companies feel that there is a bigger chance than they had before because you need more people to approve the PRs. You need more people to approve your product, and you need to create value regularly.

[00:23:42] Efrat Ravid: Many companies, especially in SaaS companies, say, “Marketing, your job is to create pipeline and to create growth, and the customer success team, your job is actually to create the retention.” Working with Quantum Metric and with so many other companies, I really can tell you that it’s everyone’s job to make the customer happy and to make sure that the customer not only does not churn but gets more value, buys more products, has more companies, users; the product is very important.

[00:24:17] Efrat Ravid: The reason I’m saying that marketing’s job is actually to help the loyalty is because we can help the customer realize the value. A lot of the value comes from the product most of the time, but it’s not obvious that every user knows what they need to do. So, marketing can help educate different users on how to use the product. They can show them what’s the value. They can create a community. When you meet other people using your product, you can think about other ideas on how to use the product and get more value. Sometimes their job is not to use your products. Their job is to create value for their own company.

[00:24:58] Efrat Ravid: Your job is to explain how your product helps them to do it regularly. We do it with once-a-year user conferences and we do it with a lot of once-a-month Zoom meetings where our customers share how they use a product and get more value. We use it by talking to them regularly, and they have the quads that they can talk to each other and ask questions to the product team and so on, and find the way that it’s a ‘we’ problem and not only customer success.

[00:25:26] Efrat Ravid: Of course, the regular communication to the customer. The worst thing that an organization can do is a month before the renewal, call a customer and say, it’s your time to renew. That’s the worst thing we can do. I think we need to be in touch on a regular basis and show the value on a regular basis.

[00:25:43] Efrat Ravid: Some of the products are mission-critical. If you are a salesperson, you are super lucky. But for most companies, most SaaS solutions, it’s an added value that they probably can live without you. It’s difficult. There are a lot of people that use it, but they probably can live without you. How do you make it so that they can’t live without you? That’s the most important question, I think, for marketers and customer success.

[00:26:06] Steve MacDonald: Again, I want to talk for two hours, but here’s what I want to do. I want to ask you to distill down everything that we’ve talked about. If there was one thing, one thing that you wanted people to take away from our conversation here today, what would that be?

[00:26:23] Efrat Ravid: So I won’t say listen to the customer and have the voice of the customer because this is what everyone tells you. Find a realistic way that works for you and the team to be part of the listening and bring what you learn from the customer to every part of the operation, part of the organization, in marketing, in sales, and customer success.

[00:26:47] Efrat Ravid: Make sure that it’s not only a marketing problem or just a customer success problem or just a product problem or just a sales problem. It’s a we-all-success in the company and the alignment is super important.

[00:27:02] Steve MacDonald: I will reiterate that I’ve done a series of seven different podcasts on why the B2B CMOs fail so quickly, the lack of alignment with the other C-Suite and specifically the CRO.

[00:27:14] Steve MacDonald: But with the CFO, with the CEO, I’ve even interviewed CEOs and asked, what do you think is the most important role of a CMO, and I get such diverse, different answers. It’s incredible. The lack of alignment is true and alive and one of the biggest issues in companies today, so I love that answer.

[00:27:34] Steve MacDonald: If you could tell me everything you’ve done in your career, all major accomplishments, what are you most proud of?

[00:27:41] Efrat Ravid: So it’s something that came up six months ago. I was in New York City and my daughter, who is 19, and she’s a college student, came with me. She had a week off. We went there for a celebration in Nasdaq for the a hundred million ARR. And in the evening, a group of women early on in their careers asked me to come and speak to them.

[00:28:04] Efrat Ravid: I asked my daughter, do you want to join me? Of course, she joined me. One of the women that was pregnant asked me, “So Efrat Ravid, how do you balance all of it? How do you balance a career?” I have three kids. How do you succeed in balancing it?

[00:28:19] Efrat Ravid: How do my kids feel about it? I’m traveling a lot, I think I traveled between 25 to 50 percent for the last 25 years. The question is, how do you do it? I told them that I didn’t succeed in doing a really good balance. I cannot tell you I’m doing an excellent job there.

[00:28:40] Efrat Ravid: But I never ask my kids how they feel about it, but my daughter is in the audience, so I asked Danielle, “Danielle, how do you feel?” Then, she stood up and said when she was young, she was very angry. I missed a lot of things at school, and she didn’t understand why she came home, and her mom is not there, and everyone else is.

[00:29:01] Efrat Ravid: But now, as a 19-year-old, she doesn’t see any other way. She actually wants her own career and making her own money and really build herself. She saw it in the first business trip she was when she was 12, and she was with me with a CEO in France. She said, “I actually don’t want your job. I was a CMO. I want his job as a CEO.”

[00:29:21] Efrat Ravid: Then, I set it aside and said, okay, I’m not as bad a mom as I said, and this is a problem, although you feel like you actually do. So give the credit to the kids that over time.

[00:29:32] Steve MacDonald: That is a fantastic story, and I’m sure your daughter is extraordinarily proud of you in so many different ways.

[00:29:40] Steve MacDonald: I can pretty much guarantee that people are going to have questions. So, would it be appropriate that I maybe gave out a link to your profile on LinkedIn so people could reach out to you?

[00:29:49] Efrat Ravid: Absolutely. I’d be happy to and be happy to answer any questions. And it was a huge pleasure.

[00:29:55] Steve MacDonald: Thank you, Efrat Ravid, for coming on, and the opportunity to learn from somebody that’s had your experience is just phenomenal. So, thank you for coming on the podcast today!