Episode #327:

Trine Tirsgaard, Group Chief Marketing Officer at Twoday, explains how customer understanding, data, experimentation, and continuous learning can create greater strategic value with AI. She explores how marketing leaders can combine technology with customer intelligence to improve decision-making, strengthen teams, and create more meaningful business value. Trine also shares why curiosity and practical experimentation are becoming essential leadership capabilities for navigating rapid technological change.

“What matters the most in the future is the power of humans. It’s the way we put our intellect to work. It’s our creativity, and the way to orchestrate concepts and feelings and understand people and teams, especially customers, and no machine can do that.” – Trine Tirsgaard

AI is changing what marketing teams can produce, but Trine argues that the larger opportunity comes from improving how people think, learn, and create customer value. She explores how leaders can build stronger data foundations, experiment with AI, develop more capable teams, and stay close to customers. The conversation offers C-suite leaders a practical framework for turning rapidly evolving technology into better decisions, stronger commercial outcomes, and sustainable growth.

Follow Trine Tirsgaard on LinkedIn

Follow Steve MacDonald on LinkedIn

[Transcript]

[00:00:10] Steve MacDonald: Welcome, everyone, to the C-Suite Sales and Marketing Perspectives Podcast. I’m Steve MacDonald, your host. And today we’ve got a very interesting guest, Trine Tirsgaard. Now, Trine, you’ve been a chief marketing officer for a while. You’ve always been in marketing. You’ve always been fascinated by the adoption of technology and change, and that has just been, you know, taking over our lives.

[00:00:32] Steve MacDonald: The playbooks that we thought we had, we rip them up, we rewrite them every day. But there’s a method to that madness that you’re going to bring to us today. And you’re actually an advocate for stopping the chase for AI tools themselves and starting to build better thinking. I cannot tell you how many conversations that I have with C-suite executives about how their boards or their CEOs are asking them, “What’s your AI strategy?”

[00:01:00] Steve MacDonald: And they’re not asking, “Here’s the outcome I’m looking for.” They’re just saying, “What are you going to do with AI?” Because we just have this wholesale belief that it’s going to help, but so far, beyond just creating efficiencies in our business, right? We’re going to dig into that quite a bit. But I’d love to give you a chance to expand a little more on your background before we get started.

[00:01:23] Trine Tirsgaard: Sure, sure. Steve, thanks for having me. It’s a pleasure. I didn’t ask you who else joined your podcast, but I did hear a few names, so I feel very honored. Just briefly expanding on who I am, as you said, I’ve been in this field of operation doing marketing and sales my entire working life, and that’s almost 30 years.

[00:01:41] Trine Tirsgaard: And I think everyone in marketing would mirror my thoughts around, you know, on our journey, we always needed to justify our positions, our doings, and why it’s important. Because first of all, everybody has an opinion about marketing. 20 years ago, it was more about: how did it look? How did it sound? And today, I think, I would say the reason I’m still around in this field of work is that it’s been the ultimate ride, and especially the last two, three years with AI coming into the picture, it’s been the most fascinating work stream I’ve joined ever.

[00:02:16] Trine Tirsgaard: Opportunities are vast. It’s amazing what you can do today as a marketer, and it’s becoming a more and more strategic role, as you and I have discussed a few times already. As a marketing person, you definitely would die if you don’t understand your customers. I mean, you would be out of business by tomorrow because today marketing is about positioning your offer when your customer is ready to open their minds to it and consider what you’re actually offering.

[00:02:41] Trine Tirsgaard: The second part is, how do you describe that value? Because everything you sell today has to be value. We don’t sell billing, billable hours anymore, or a project. That’s gone. So as we all know, the consultancy business is having quite a hard time, and that’s my line of business for almost 20 years.

[00:02:58] Trine Tirsgaard: If we cannot explain the value of our offer to our customers, we are out of business. So I think to round that off, my line of work is getting extraordinarily exciting today because we are thinking very strategically about our role and how we can grow the business. So marketing has become a commercial engine, basically.

[00:03:18] Steve MacDonald: You know, you said so many things in there I want to unpack. I have to tell you, I talk to a lot of CMOs that feel like they don’t have a seat at the table, the C-suite table. They feel like they’re an imposter. They feel like they’re viewed as one of the largest cost centers in the business. They feel like they’re as good as their last lead. And what you defined there, just in your opening, and I love how you termed it, nobody over 300 interviews with C-suite executives ever said, “If you don’t understand your customer, you die.”

[00:03:51] Steve MacDonald: So I love the drama behind that, but I 100% agree. It’s back to Marketing 101, or just Go-To-Market 101. Understanding your customers is the most basic thing. We’ve been told so many times. Forrester came out a few years ago with a customer obsession study and found that only 3% of us are actually customer obsessed. Just 3%. McKinsey had a study just a few years ago and said that less than 15% of companies actually use the voice of the customer in their strategic decision-making. It’s absolutely incredible. It’s not done regularly. We all say we’re customer-focused, we’re customer-obsessed, but it’s how we put it into action.

[00:04:38] Steve MacDonald: You have a ton to say on that, so I want to get into that really quickly here. First off, you threw it in lightly, and I want you to explain a little bit more: that marketing isn’t about promoting services as much as it is about creating customer value. And as an organization, we know we need to do that, and AI has done two things. Our clients expect more value than ever before, and they expect it faster. So unpack a little bit that, as marketers, we’re not promoting services; we’re creating value, and how that transition has happened.

[00:05:13] Trine Tirsgaard: Well, I think only a few years ago we would look at a customer, and we would love to get the customer on board, right? Today, when I look at a customer, I don’t see the person per se. I see the project and the struggle they are in. The reason why I do it is that challenges have taught me that’s the only way you get them to listen, and for good reasons, because who would ever buy 10,000 hours of somebody if you cannot tell them that you’re actually gonna deliver value in the end.

[00:05:37] Trine Tirsgaard: It’s the old crafting around marketing where you discuss MQLs or SQLs, but when does it actually convert? In a company, especially the consultancy business that I’m part of, you have so many touchpoints with a customer. In the organization that I’ve been part of, you would have 20 lines of contact with a certain customer. If you don’t use it tactically in the right way, you’ll be stupid today, right? Because everything matters. It’s getting tougher to get through the crowd. That’s why you have to be very persistent and tactical about how you go to market. And the old campaigns where you just shout out across the ocean and hope that somebody listens- nobody falls for it anymore, right?

[00:06:16] Trine Tirsgaard: I would say we all learned it the hard way, didn’t we? Because at least for somebody like myself who grew up in the business, today it’s about a qualification game, and it’s to be super curious about your customers every day, through and through, and how can we get in contact with them and have conversations, not just in the technical room. In my line of business, the consultancy business right now, many, or maybe all of us, are pretty focused on getting to the board level because that’s where the decision stands, especially around AI. It has moved up the ladder. Only a year ago, it was still in the technical area that you would discuss these projects, but it has become a strategic business decision today.

[00:07:00] Trine Tirsgaard: I think the missing link for many organizations is still, like you pointed to yourself, the board; the management team hasn’t really got their arms around what the value of AI can bring. So if you want to sell AI projects, you can talk the technical language, uh, but you certainly have to understand the business impact and discuss that, too. You can defer over to the marketing game. You have to speak so many languages to us, with so many people with different opinions and connection points. So yeah, it’s not an easy game anymore.

[00:07:31] Steve MacDonald: Going back to the title here, how are you enabling AI or not? You just talked about better strategic thinking, increasing of value, not promotion of services. How do we get to that level of thinking? I’ll tell you that most CMOs I talk to have your philosophy. They come into a new position, and they call customers, and they’re like, “Hey, this isn’t a sales call,” right? “I’m, I’m new. I’m here to learn.” And you have these incredible, deep, meaningful conversations, and then they stop because your proactive list of things you’re not getting to every day just grows and grows.

[00:08:14] Steve MacDonald: And so we get a taste of it. But you said in your response, “We can never stop learning.” We had a call before this, and you said that was one of the keys, like remaining always curious, always learning as a key to that strategic thinking and value. If you could unpack that and what you’ve learned as you’ve gone through your career in service clients and won, lost clients, we all have. How does strategic thinking play a role today versus a year ago, 10 years ago, right? What’s that role today?

[00:08:52] Trine Tirsgaard: Pretty different. I think five, eight, even 10 years ago, strategic thinking would be around where are your customers located, how much did they buy from us earlier on, what new product lines are they presenting to the world and stuff like that.

[00:09:05] Trine Tirsgaard: As we all know, with AI and language models, you have all that fact at hand, right? So strategic thinking today is something completely different. It’s even getting, I would almost say, emotional. Sometimes you have to risk a little bit, right? You have to put your risk investment on the table as well, and that’s what I mean with value.

[00:09:24] Trine Tirsgaard: So your client or your customer understands that you go all the way, first of all, but you’re willing to invest like they are. And I think where I’ve recently seen the most value creation is also where we, for example, as consultants, are willing to invest in a game or a project. You know, you can always discuss what the value we get in return is.

[00:09:45] Trine Tirsgaard: That’s another conversation. We need to think differently about how to deliver projects or value today because we are not just selling a project off the shelf and expecting the customer to take it and plug it into their machine room because everything has changed. It doesn’t work like that anymore. The journey and the surrounding and the climate on the customer side is equally as complex as our own.

[00:10:06] Trine Tirsgaard: If I were to envision something happening in the future, it is that we need to be much closer to the customer on their side, basically almost employed by them in their company. I wouldn’t be surprised if, in a very short while, we have a situation where a customer says, “I’ll tell you the price I’m gonna pay once I see the value I get from it.”

[00:10:24] Trine Tirsgaard: And that’s just another way of doing business, right? Honestly, I think I believe in what I can deliver, so I think it’s amazing because if you believe in the value you create and deliver, you also have an upside on the other side, and I think that’s where we can create stronger societies and greater projects and services.

[00:10:44] Steve MacDonald: What I wanted to get into much deeper is you and I talked before about how you get to that strategic thinking. And I love it, ’cause, yeah, 10 years ago, we were all really enthusiastic about, we were looking at geographies and different things, and we were looking at psychographics, and we were looking at demographics.

[00:11:04] Steve MacDonald: We’re getting all excited about what we’re doing. And what we’re looking at today and what we can use today to make strategic decisions is so incredible. So you talked a lot about three different things that come together. The AI tools are the enabler. And, you know, how excited I am about AI as well, but it had to be put to me this way. The AI tools and the models, they’re a commodity.

[00:11:31] Steve MacDonald: You have the same models that I do. Your competitors have the same models that you do. It’s what we do with the models. It’s how we use them to extract the thinking and escalate the value. We’ve both been in the business long enough that, bringing together data and moving across data silos and fragmented systems, we talked about that 10, 15 years ago, right?

[00:11:57] Steve MacDonald: Digital transformation was the big keyword, and we didn’t quite figure it out then, because we’re still struggling with it today. If we had all the right data to connect to the AI tools, it would make such a huge difference. So we’re still struggling with that. What does data mean in terms of getting to the right level of strategic thinking from just a data management perspective? What does that mean? What do we need to know?

[00:12:26] Trine Tirsgaard: Yeah, what do we need to know, and what do we have access to? I would say we have access to a ton of data. In my world, and in my thinking and how I always work, you have to get your data straight. And not just get the data straight, you have to plug it into the right channels.

[00:12:40] Trine Tirsgaard: You have to do the combination. You have to get the concepts right so they can continuously generate the outputs you want to refine your campaigns, refine your offers, and refine the packaging of the value you want to give your customers. I recently joined a big global consultancy business, and when I joined, AI was just beginning to disrupt my part of the world.

[00:13:02] Trine Tirsgaard: It’s over hundreds of employees. I definitely had a lot who struggled with this. They were afraid. The reason I ask, we all had, so what risks does this put on my role? Can I even do it? Am I good enough? A lot of hesitation that we all have experienced and worked with. You know, and then there is another dimension.

[00:13:20] Trine Tirsgaard: It’s the, and I get so irritated because I feel it still exists, that people think you’re cheating when you use AI. You know what? That’s crap, right? ‘Cause, as you said, if you are not as good as your competitors and they are not cheating, they don’t find it cheating, you know, then you’re also out of business, right?

[00:13:37] Trine Tirsgaard: So let’s stop feeling that we cheat when we use models. That’s really stupid. Then we’ll fall behind. But that’s just another dimension. So there’s a lot of hesitation, but I’ve urged curiosity and really tried to motivate all my teams to get on board, not be afraid, and stay open. And when you actually learn and experience the way you can make things un-complex, that’s where you find the power of AI in my field.

[00:14:02] Trine Tirsgaard: I’ve just seen that light turn on in so many people’s eyes, and I think we were also building our own models, and they are crap today. But just the effort of doing it, working with the technology, you know, you feel much more secure and leaning into that world than you were before. And that’s just another part with all, for all the CMOs listening, which I’m sure they would say the same, that our department is becoming more and more around technology, having data analysts and even scientists sometimes sitting and building platforms with us, and that’s what I mean with the reason why I’m still around in this role is because it’s becoming more and more strategic.

[00:14:40] Trine Tirsgaard: Plus, the understanding of data technology and access to data is so important, and if we can manage, like you just asked me, if we can manage to set that flow in order and build that platform right so it ongoingly feeds us the right data so we can perform better, that’s when the work gets exciting, and that’s value to me.

[00:15:01] Trine Tirsgaard: I also remember from our earlier conversation that I think you asked me whether my kind of role wouldn’t be a chief customer officer in the future, and I think you are perfectly right. It’s having the technology work for us and building it to serve us, but it’s also to learn all we can about the customers. I’m super positive about the future in this role.

[00:15:24] Steve MacDonald: You brought it back to the customer here. I think it was another McKinsey report that said that, of all our data, 90% of it is unstructured. It’s conversational data. That’s the hardest data to capture and connect to AI. But it’s the data where the nuggets are.

[00:15:43] Steve MacDonald: We’re swimming in data. We don’t have any problem getting statistical data. But it’s what customers say in the right moments at the right time. I had another CMO on, and she just said this, and I just love it. She said, “We’re not in enough of the right rooms with the right people at the right time asking the right questions.”

[00:16:02] Steve MacDonald: You keep bringing up being a chief customer officer, and I think what that really means is that we have to be really curious, but in a way that we not only learn, but we turn that into data that we can actually use. I want to get your opinion on this because I don’t know if it’s coining a term or not, but I get so frustrated.

[00:16:23] Steve MacDonald: I’ve done a lot of C-level work as well, and I’ve started two SaaS companies, and one of the things that just drives me crazy is we collect all this data about the customer, and then we come out of CAB meetings. We’re all doing high-fives and belly bumps, and we learned so much. And then that probably makes it into something we say at our team meeting the next time we get together.

[00:16:45] Steve MacDonald: It makes it into a point or two in a PowerPoint deck. A month later, really, where is it? A quarter later, what have we done with it? How’s it impacted anything? I call it insight decay, but those insights are the number one things that keep us focused on the customer. We learn, and we can’t let them decay.

[00:17:02] Steve MacDonald: How do we fight that, right? It’s so important. It’s almost like we want to have our own technology, our own operating system that keeps all of this. I don’t know that it’s a solved problem yet, right? I like that. Yeah. But we keep pursuing it, and we don’t have a shelf to put it on. Or we do have a shelf. It’s called a Google Drive or a Microsoft OneDrive, and then it just stays up there like a book on a shelf collecting dust, right? How do we execute on what we learn? Our curiosity, our passion.

[00:17:34] Trine Tirsgaard: But honestly, I think technology is working so fast that let’s not create a system for a shelf where we can collect all the data that you say collects the dust, because somewhere in the background it still is meaningful because, with the right models, with the right capture of data, it will become important in some kind of odd setting.

[00:17:55] Trine Tirsgaard: I think out of curiosity, we started to build our own campaign model that already exists now, and half a year later. That’s also why I’m so pushy that people lean into the technology, stay hungry, and stay curious, because I think what matters most in the future is the power of humans. It’s the way we put our intellect to work.

[00:18:15] Trine Tirsgaard: It’s our creativity, and the way to orchestrate concepts and feelings and understanding people, teams, especially customers, and no machine can do that. Not yet. So I think that’s super important. That’s the fourth. And then that’s also where it gets fun, right? Because honestly, I think we had that conversation.

[00:18:35] Trine Tirsgaard: Will we ever go back? Oh my God, I didn’t wanna pull down all the notes from every meeting. I didn’t wanna repeat myself over and over again. Just read it. You can read the report; you can pull it into a language model. You get five sentences, and then you know the abstracts of it, right? I wouldn’t worry too much about where to put the data from whatever.

[00:18:54] Trine Tirsgaard: I think it will be captured, and we will use it if we’re smart enough.

[00:19:01] Steve MacDonald: So another thing that you had mentioned is that a part of unlocking the strategic thinking is prompting. We went through a big cycle over the last couple of years where the number one hire was prompt engineers. We need prompt engineers, and it was, like, trending on LinkedIn, and it’s just incredible.

[00:19:21] Steve MacDonald: And then that passed because we realized that they were good at creating prompts, but they didn’t have our expertise. They didn’t understand the customer. And so we really have to put that prompting expertise in the hands of the go-to-market teams. But we still look at that blank box a lot when we start to chat.

[00:19:40] Steve MacDonald: We do a lot of our own prompts that we reuse over and over again. How do we get better at prompting, right? It’s such an important part of unlocking that, and I’ll give you one stat. It’s not a stat. Claude called it a finding, and then ChatGPT agreed. But they said that, across the prompts they get, there are six different inputs they want.

[00:20:05] Steve MacDonald: Four are buyer insight related, but they get two on average out of the six that they need. And then what Claude said is, “Then what we do is we invent the rest.” Like, did you want that? You know, you’re trying to, like, you chat back and forth, right? Did you mean to use that word, invent? And yes, prompting is so important.

[00:20:26] Steve MacDonald: In fact, and I’ll throw you one last study, and I would add to it ’cause I want it to be part of what you think about. MIT Sloan School did a big survey, and they found that half the value of the new models that are coming out isn’t the model itself. It’s the prompt. If you don’t get the prompt right, you’re not gonna utilize the model right.

[00:20:46] Steve MacDonald: You don’t have the right data coming in, right? So these pieces of, like, utilizing the models with the right data and the right prompt is huge to unlock the thinking. But how do you prompt it? How do you teach your team to prompt? Do you guide them? Like, how do you think about it?

[00:21:02] Trine Tirsgaard: Yeah, yeah. So I come from a Google world, right? In Google, you can create Gems in Google Enterprise. So you would have Gems for, mm-hmm, social media posts. You would have Gems for writing an article around certain topics, and you could have tons of Gems. And that was almost a year ago already. I think that world has evolved ever since. And let me give you another example.

[00:21:22] Trine Tirsgaard: I started vibe coding half a year ago. I, I had no clue what it was, basically, but a good friend of mine told me, “Ah, you can make prototypes. You should do it.” So instead of describing what you want, I was like, okay, I’ve, my worlds. I got so sick of PowerPoint. I’ve done too many of those in my life. So I thought, okay, let me try this out.

[00:21:40] Trine Tirsgaard: And this is not a promotion for Lovable, but I love the tool. So I started vibe coding in Lovable, and I noticed that when I wanted to advance stuff, when I wanted to build APIs and websites that were a little bit more advanced, I came to a challenge, right? Because I felt the model didn’t understand what I wanted.

[00:21:57] Trine Tirsgaard: Then I started to use Claude. I said, “Okay, Claude, I wanna rebuild this page. I wanna keep the same format. These reports are super important. I want a button to open it so you can actually interact with the content and stuff.” And then I would copy-paste the URL from my vibe coded site into Claude, and it would come out with a prompt that was so long, so many details, and I would.

[00:22:20] Trine Tirsgaard: And, and it was like, “You just copy and paste this into Lovable.” I did, and it was better than I had hoped for, right? That was mind-blowing to me. So my point is, I wouldn’t advise chasing the perfect prompt because I know output is as good as input, right? But the models are getting better. But I think you should also be smart about how you handle it, because what I learned is that you need quite a few details if you want to get it right, and sometimes you just can’t get to that level of detail.

[00:22:51] Trine Tirsgaard: So my advice would be to try to use a model. Just use speech-to-text and ask it what the prompt would be, and try it out. It works, actually.

[00:23:00] Steve MacDonald: Yeah, I love that. If you’re in marketing and you’re not experimenting with vibe coding, you really got to get on the bandwagon. It’s intoxicating. It’s fun. Not only are you like, “Oh my gosh, look what I could do,” right?

[00:23:12] Steve MacDonald: So there’s a third part that I want to ask you about, and it’s all on this: how do we get better strategic thinking? So a couple of years ago, Anthropic did an internal research study, and what they found out is that when you ask Claude to do something, it turns out X, Y, and Z. If you ask Claude to put together a team of agents to solve that same problem and give the agents very specific roles of buyer advocate, skeptic, maybe the industry expertise, and put it together, you come out with an answer that increased in intelligence by 90%.

[00:23:55] Steve MacDonald: 90%, right? It makes sense. Like, we put together our marketing teams, right? We don’t ask everybody to do everything. We have people that are demand gen experts. We have people who have different roles and expertise, and we all come together, and we create what the marketing department produces. So we’ve used the team concept for many years, but the idea is to combine it with our prompts and the right data.

[00:24:20] Steve MacDonald: And what’s interesting is that what’s coming out and emerging here is a use of the tools that goes beyond them as commodities. A strategic use of tools equals strategic value and strategic thinking that you’re going to get on the other side. You play in that world of vibe coding, prompting, databases, and deep understanding of the customer.

[00:24:47] Steve MacDonald: These are all components of. And then now this agentic team concept, all components of what we’ve got to bring together to really unlock what these models have as potential. And I just wanted to know kind of your thoughts on how much time should we devote to learning, to experimenting? How much time, ’cause I know you don’t have a lot of time in your day as the CMO.

[00:25:15] Steve MacDonald: How much time should we spend devoted to learning how to use these tools, these models better?

[00:25:25] Trine Tirsgaard: A lot. To the extent that we learn enough to stay on the wagon and stay curious. As we’ve discussed this whole half hour now, if you don’t wanna slip a few days, then you’re already behind. But I also don’t want it to be too hasty and too pushy, and then you’re just fighting to know better all the time, and you can’t.

[00:25:47] Trine Tirsgaard: It’s a matter of finding that balance where you know enough to step on the next wave that’s coming because it’s starting so fast, combined with the mindset of staying curious. I think that’s probably the toughest thing as marketers today. It’s not even the strategic one; it’s to operate the team. You have to balance that curiosity in your team, and you have to motivate them to keep going and to learn every day.

[00:26:11] Trine Tirsgaard: Maybe it will be wise to set a bar or a target that we have to learn one new thing every day, and that’s okay, and that’s enough. Because then we can relearn from each other. That’s the feed to the brains that we need to keep focusing on going forward. Putting up the engine and having the data set right and keeping it going and refining the data, that’s just operations with models now.

[00:26:32] Trine Tirsgaard: Understanding your team on the people side, being the right leader who can motivate them to keep learning. But also, I think every CMO has probably rethought their team construction, right? So which kind of roles do I need today? I need somebody who can operate data. I need somebody who’s more tech-savvy.

[00:26:53] Trine Tirsgaard: We still wanna keep the strategic thinking. We have all the data, so we don’t need anybody to collect it. We can set that all up, right? You can also set up a campaign engine so you don’t have to produce anything. Just say that, more generally speaking, we spend so much time on it in the old world; it’s done in a flick of a second now.

[00:27:11] Trine Tirsgaard: So back to the point about being hungry to understand technology, but also to be sitting next to the customer all the time because that’s where you learn, that’s the feed you need, so you can polish your engine and sharpen it every day. 

[00:27:27] Steve MacDonald: In fact, I’ve got one last question for you because we’ve gone over a lot today, right? If there was one thing that you wanted the other C-suite executives who will be consuming this podcast, the one thing that you want them to take away, what would that one thing be?

[00:27:44] Trine Tirsgaard: Well, what I’m about to say depends a lot on who you are as a person, right? I’ve just learned so much, even throughout the last three months. So my best advice is to stay curious, and sometimes you fail. Sometimes you don’t get it with the first attempt, right? But even with the smaller things, with understanding how to work with APIs or more complex data sets, if you can operate that, I have at least an eye-opener. I maybe felt, okay, I understand a little bit of the technology, and that has kept me going.

[00:28:11] Trine Tirsgaard: Stay curious and be tactical. We were supposed to be very strategic about everything, but I would say the small tactical actions matter today because that’s the definition of going to fail, to actually succeed with a customer.

[00:28:28] Steve MacDonald: The entire mission of this podcast is to interview C-suite executives, B2B companies, ABM go-to-market from all over the world, ’cause we all have different experiences.

[00:28:39] Steve MacDonald: We all have different perspectives. We have different insights. If we could bring those together and help each other grow, then I call that the rising tide that lifts all boats. You were such an amazing part of that rising tide today. I just wanted to say thank you for coming on the podcast.

[00:28:55] Trine Tirsgaard: Thank you so much for having me. It was such a pleasure.